.

.

All things hang gliding. This is the main forum. New users, introduce yourself.

Moderators: sg, mods

User avatar
By rallyant
#17684
Our club held a water landing night to try and prepare us in case we ever have to make an emergency water landing.
of the 16 of us that had a go, 10 "died" and had to be saved by the divers.

Not the best quality pics but i thought id share them with you.

Image


Image

Image

Glen
Last edited by rallyant on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By xerxes
#17685
Wow, I'm glad that's not my glider. I'm guessing most folks coulden't get out of the harness in time. Personally, if I'm underwater I'm cutting my way out. Looks like fun though!
User avatar
By boarini2003
#17688
What a great idea. Can you discuss with us, what were the leading propblems leading to death?
User avatar
By designbydave
#17689
That is AWESOME! And at a public pool? Nice Hang Gliding promotion guys :thumbsup:

Please do share the procedure for surviving a water landing.
User avatar
By rallyant
#17695
One of the guys there actually did land about a mile out to sea not to long ago, very nearly died from it.
I always thought id cut myself out too. but after that night im not so sure.

It only took me 15 seconds from the time i jumped of the edge until i was out and breathing again, it wasn't long but it was worse than i thought, I did not take a breath before i went under, i wanted to make it realistic/worst case scenario.
I fumbled getting my shoes threw the legs loop, a knife here might have helped, but you would still have to find and get your knife onto them after unbuckling and unzipping.

Another method used was unhooking, but the harness floats quite well. something i had not thought about, and it makes everything harder regardless of the method used.

last year they tried the knife and used string, but just as many "died"

The main thing is to get as prepared as you can before you hit the water, IF you get the chance.
Unbuckle, unzip, get your shoes off?, cut the hang straps and fall the last X feet to the water or fly in the A frame and climb right out the harness all together. depends how much time if any you have.
But we all agree, DONT land in the water :) or if you must, head out past the breakers and land in the calmer water.
User avatar
By gerg
#17696
Ditto! That is indeed awesome! Glad someone decided to sacrifice their glider for the cause... :shock:

I'm not surprised by the low number of "survivors"... But please do share any tips/techniques used...

E.g. did you guys have the chance to cut your way free? (lots of old hang straps?) or was it just get out of the harness or undo the carabiner? I'm trying to imagine how I'd get out with my pod harness.

EDIT: Well, looks like you answered a lot of the questions.. :) Thank you!
User avatar
By rallyant
#17697
designbydave wrote:That is AWESOME! And at a public pool? Nice Hang Gliding promotion guys :thumbsup:

Please do share the procedure for surviving a water landing.
thats what i thought. unfortunately they give us the pool space in the off season when theres almost no one there :(
boarini2003 wrote:What a great idea. Can you discuss with us, what were the leading propblems leading to death?
I think panic was probably the biggest problem. Following that, it was shoes getting stuck on the Leg loops .
With no shoes and bare legs, once you were unzipped, unbuckled and arms clear its simply a matter of swimming forward and out. But with pants and shoes you really need to relax, grab the loops with your hands and remove one leg at a time.

With a single surface glider like we ere using there is plenty of space under the wing for quite a while, so you could take a breath if in calm water, but to make it realistic i pretended i was in a double surface glider.

the other thing that struck me was how DAM hard it was to pull that glider from the water! there is NO WAY with all of us pulling we would be able to get the glider with pilot up. it was VERY hard to lift until the wing surface had separated from the water.
I now understand why people have died just walking along the beach with there gliders, to close to the water.
User avatar
By sg
#17699
FRICKEN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Few things scare me more than a water landing.
I always hoped id have enough time to at least unhook well before hitting the water.

I just dont see getting out of the harness while under water. I would have focused on unhooking first, and swimming out WITH my harness without snagging anything.

When you said the harness floats which makes it harder, in what way?
Do you get pinned under the sail via floatation???

What method of escape did the survivors use? Was there a pattern???
User avatar
By rallyant
#17700
gerg wrote:Ditto! That is indeed awesome! Glad someone decided to sacrifice their glider for the cause... :shock:

I'm not surprised by the low number of "survivors"... But please do share any tips/techniques used...

E.g. did you guys have the chance to cut your way free? (lots of old hang straps?) or was it just get out of the harness or undo the carabiner? I'm trying to imagine how I'd get out with my pod harness.
It was an old glider that has not been used for a LONG time. not worth using again these days.

I was not there, but im told that last year they had the chance to cut themselves free, they used rope instead of hang straps. But they were no more successful.

One of the other survivors on this night undid the carabiner to escape, I will have to ask again, but the comments i remember were that the fact the harness floats so well it was hard to turn over and find the carabiner, and even once free of the glider its still difficult to get out of the harness
sg wrote: When you said the harness floats which makes it harder, in what way?
Do you get pinned under the sail via floatation???

What method of escape did the survivors use? Was there a pattern???
At the start of the night i had planed in using the unhook method, but it was noted that the harness did float and pin you up against the sail/keel, so rather than take my chances fumbling for the carabiner i decided to just get out of the harness. Even then, because of the floating harness you are doing this in a head low - feet hi( against the keel) position. The harness just flows your shoes and grabs there every move.
Try putting your hand in a plastic bag underwater and pulling it out, if you can imagine?. It has this kind of effect.
I dont know if all harnesses would be like this tho?

Only 1 of the survivors used the unhook method, im not sure what most of the others did tho. good question. i will have to find out. or maybe this is a good time to get them on this forum :)
User avatar
By boarini2003
#17704
Very interesting discussion. Back in Guatemala I witnessed many water landings at Lake Atitlan where the LZ is pretty tight. Novice pilots would fly wearing shorts, easy to take off shoes and most importantly, an inflated inner tube tied or taped to the crossbar and control frame junction on the underside of the wing. This was enough to keep the wing afloat. It sounds crazy but it worked. So well in fact, that there was a student whose first mountain flight was done at this site. He was told to just fly straight out into the lake, while a boat followed closely under him.
User avatar
By sg
#17706
When flying at a site where there is danger of a water landing, I like to carry my hook knife for cutting thru lines and my serated knife for cutting thru sail and other stuff.

I also fly with an auto locking twist carabiner that I can open easily without spending time unscrewing it open.

Now thinking about what you said, and the harness floatation, im thinking a good strategy would be to try to keep yourself vertical after impact. Get your arms behind the down tubes, grab them, and pull yourself vertical like you are about to launch an HG. Let the harness float you up so your head hits the sail BEHIND the A-frame.

Now your face is right in front of the biner. Unlock it. Push off backwards, look behind you and ty to hook the TRAILING edge with your hands and pull/swim towards the trailing edge and exit there. This is also a good position to pull out your serated knife and cut a hole thru the sail for some air.

Does this sound possible? Or does the floatation combined with all the lines just immediately pin you horizontally under the sail?

One thing that is not realistic about this simulation is there is no forward speed. When that control bar hits the water, the nose is gonna whack into the water sending you PRONE thru the control frame. THEN you would have to work to get your self upright behind the A-frame again, which I think could be difficult.

Im wondering if goal #1 really should be to get your head near the sail, with the intent of cutting a hole to get air, relax, and give yourself time to work this out.
User avatar
By axo
#17707
Ok... i guess someone else must have thought about this.. so i don't see why you were not using this simple system.

Enter the SNORKEL . :mosh:

If there is people flying near water, and the risk of landing on it exists... then why not discretely adapt a 2 or 3 feet piece of plastic or rubber pipe that goes from the kingpost through the hole in the sail down to anywhere at reach of the head of the pilot??? This would give the pilot a way to do things without getting so desperate for air, and in real life conditions, i bet you will not land on clear water like that pool, but a lake or the sea where you can't see much of what you are doing.

Here is an example.
Looks like it is lunch time for someone else!!
:owned:
Attachments
hgwater.jpg
hgwater.jpg (72.54 KiB) Viewed 14996 times
User avatar
By sg
#17708
HG SNORKEL!!! :mosh:

:roflcat:
User avatar
By xerxes
#17709
Sweet, that's awesome. You could even use one that has one of those valves at the top to keep water out of the pipe. :rofl:

This just reminded me of something I once heard: If your using a long piece of tubing as a snorkle, make sure to breath IN through the pipe, and OUT through your nose, into the water. If you exhale through a long enough pipe, there can be enough room in it to contain an entire lungfull, so you would just be recycling your depleted air, and pass out.
User avatar
By tony7kp
#17710
axopro wrote:Ok... i guess someone else must have thought about this.. so i don't see why you were not using this simple system.

Enter the SNORKEL . :mosh:

If there is people flying near water, and the risk of landing on it exists... then why not discretely adapt a 2 or 3 feet piece of plastic or rubber pipe that goes from the kingpost through the hole in the sail down to anywhere at reach of the head of the pilot??? This would give the pilot a way to do things without getting so desperate for air, and in real life conditions, i bet you will not land on clear water like that pool, but a lake or the sea where you can't see much of what you are doing.

Here is an example.
Looks like it is lunch time for someone else!!
:owned:
anyone who scuba dives / snorkles can tell you that this wouldnt be very feasible. In order to have a snorkle that goes to the top of the sail, you will need a pretty long piece of tube. And there is a limit to how much air the human lung can take in and out, which limits the length of the snorkle to only a foot or so. there is also limitation on the diameter of the snorkle, but thats not a problem here. But either way, with a tube that long, you'll be able to get about 1 breath of air, then you'll be breathing in your co2 from then on, which won't really help. so its good for one extra breath. that seems pretty pointless. if you're really worried about water landing, you can buy an emergency air kit which is the size of a small camera or so, and it'll be enough to give you air for the time to escape. Also it'll be much easier than trying to fit a snorkle system into your glider.
User avatar
By sg
#17714
xerxes wrote:This just reminded me of something I once heard: If your using a long piece of tubing as a snorkle, make sure to breath IN through the pipe, and OUT through your nose, into the water. If you exhale through a long enough pipe, there can be enough room in it to contain an entire lungfull, so you would just be recycling your depleted air, and pass out.
Good point
User avatar
By steve555
#17718
That’s awesome!
I’ve always wondered what that would be like. :shock:
I’m not sure what would scare me more, a tumble or a water landing.

Apparently my instructor and his friends had to do water landings during a demo in down town Pittsburgh at the regatta festival. He said they tucked floats up under their wing tips so as not to lose their gliders. When I asked about change in glide performance he said that (to the best of his recollection) there really wasn’t any noticeable difference.

As far as the snorkel idea goes it would be worth it to put it on there just to see the look on other pilots faces after they ask “dude what’s that tube for”. :mrgreen:
User avatar
By PilotGuy
#17720
You don't need to worry about the length of the snorkel, you're not going to suffocate yourself by breathing in and out of it.

The average male lung capacity is 6 liters, of which you can inhale and exhale 4.5 liters at a time. If you had a 1 inch diameter tube, which is a pretty generous size and about the max you can comfortably get your mouth around, your snorkel could be 28 feet long before you'd completely fill it with your own air. So a 5 or even 7 foot tube up to your kingpost would be no problem, you'd rebreathe a little bit, but still get fresh air. And even if you were rebreathing, it takes a while for recycled air to reach toxic levels of CO2, and you only use 25% of the oxygen in the air with each breath. And besides, you're not going to be hanging out under your wing, you're just going for a breath or two to get out of the harness and keep yourself calm. I say go for the snorkel.
User avatar
By sg
#17721
PilotGuy should be on myth busters :lol:
User avatar
By tony7kp
#17723
PilotGuy wrote:You don't need to worry about the length of the snorkel, you're not going to suffocate yourself by breathing in and out of it.

The average male lung capacity is 6 liters, of which you can inhale and exhale 4.5 liters at a time. If you had a 1 inch diameter tube, which is a pretty generous size and about the max you can comfortably get your mouth around, your snorkel could be 28 feet long before you'd completely fill it with your own air. So a 5 or even 7 foot tube up to your kingpost would be no problem, you'd rebreathe a little bit, but still get fresh air. And even if you were rebreathing, it takes a while for recycled air to reach toxic levels of CO2, and you only use 25% of the oxygen in the air with each breath. And besides, you're not going to be hanging out under your wing, you're just going for a breath or two to get out of the harness and keep yourself calm. I say go for the snorkel.

although I say your math is correct, you are making wrong assumtions. when you have a tube that long, you have "dead air" trapped between the two ends of the tube and as the tube get longer, the more dead air you have. as you try to "clear" the tube, you will still have all that co2 that you are trapping. and if the tube is really long, you will just suck in 90% of that dead air thats now co2 back in. and even though you are also correct in using only 25% of the oxygen per breath, with that level of dead air, you will be out of breath and unconcious within a couple of breathes. the maximum length any snorkle should be to have no real dead air is approx 17inches, which is no where close to what you will need to reach the top of a glider.

Morph info video just posted. https://www.youtube.[…]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Me3srOy7Ac

Waffle iron for GEEKS

it seems like I have to try it. wkwkwk also visit […]

"THERMAL CHASERS"

"THERMAL CHASERS" https://www.youtube.[…]