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#403202
The industry publication "Risk & Insurance" recognized Tim Herr for his successful efforts in forming the Recreation Risk Retention Group (RRRG).

http://riskandinsurance.com/a-perfect-landing/

It is interesting to read their insights, and that by industry standards Tim did an outstanding job! We all knew that but it's great to see it reflected by his new insurance industry peers.

Thank you Tim!
#403203
Maybe he could work on insuring every mountain biker ,windsurfer,atv rider,fisherman,skier,snowboarder,drone pilot,and on and on.

I have said this so many times and ways,,pilots do not need insurance .Business needs insurance.Eliminate profit and liability is a non-issue.
#403206
srskypuppy wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:46 pm
The industry publication "Risk & Insurance" recognized Tim Herr for his successful efforts in forming the Recreation Risk Retention Group (RRRG).

http://riskandinsurance.com/a-perfect-landing/

It is interesting to read their insights, and that by industry standards Tim did an outstanding job! We all knew that but it's great to see it reflected by his new insurance industry peers.

Thank you Tim!
I worked closely with Tim to defend an HG pilots against a frivolous lawsuit filed by another USHPA member. He did a good job and the case got tossed. Too bad we had shitty private liability coverage that easily caved in to questionable claims and one USHPA member who committed treason. Many of those claims were legit however and the fault of the USHPA pilots involved. The membership at large failed to grasp this concept that we were being fucked over by our own irresponsible members, some of whom were being vehemently defended until their crimes were exposed to the light of day. So we got dropped and were left holding our dicks. I'm glad Tim was able to get the self-insurance thing working. Too bad there's so much confusion and animus going on with lots of small guys describing how they're getting squeezed out.
#403207
Tim Herr told me and all the other Bay Area instructors, If we did not buy his RRRG insurance we would not be able to teach hang gliding in our county park.

Tim Herr was wrong.

It is my own opinion that Tim Herr is a liar and a snake. While Tim is fighting to make hang gliding exclusive to USHPA members, I will continue to make all hang gliding sites open to all hang glider pilots.
#403220
Can someone tell me how much Mr. Herr was paid for his work, and how much of the money donated and paid by the members continue to be paid to Mr Herr on a regular basis? What are the administrative costs of this policy, and WHO profits from them? How many people are making money off of the RRRG?

It's ALWAYS nice to follow the money.
#403221
I have been very vocal in my opposition to the new RRRG insurance when it came to premium for small schools. I always thought that the premium for small schools was set too high and the additional rules that came with coverage were too limiting to make teaching HG attractive to an instructor. I am of the opinion that in order for HG to thrive we need schools/instructors in more places than we have now and we need tandem discovery flights to help pay the bills of a school and to give us more positive exposure. Heck that's why we are growing the HG population in the Houston area. Small schools in rural areas are important to keep hang gliding alive and accessible at the places where we fly. I make a living by hang gliding full time and I/we buy coverage from the RRRG as a large school.
I am passionate about this. I have had many heated conversations with Mark Forbes, Tim Herr and Randy Legget. All these three (and more) have worked hard to set up this RRRG. I attended the last board meeting in Golden to see these guys again in person and look them in the eye. In face to face conversations I was able to get a better understanding of what they are doing and why. While I still have many reservations, they are not with the RRRG guys. I still think that the cost for small schools is relatively high, compared to what large schools (me) pay. But I received a very clear answer as to why that is. I also still think that the bureaucracy and paperwork involved with being an instructor is getting ridiculous. The PASA certification certainly makes that worse, but the most ridiculous additional rules come from our own association. Not from the RRRG. Tim is USHPA's attorney. As such he is doing an excellent job. He is doing exactly what he is supposed to do and more, especially in his role as a the man who set up our captive. Tim is anything but a snake. In fact I got to know him as a very sympathetic, knowledgeable and hard working guy who truly means the best for our sports.
Bart Weghorst
Last edited by gotandem on Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
#403224
So Bart, you wouldn't be opposed to letting us know how much of the roughly 2.5 to 3 million dollars of member money is going to pay all of the board members and how much of that money was paid to individuals to create the RRRG? I don't oppose just recompense to anyone who works for a living, and I wouldnt expect it to be free, but I am curious to see how much went where.
#403225
I'm not opposed to that at all. I read all the financials, all the annual reports, articles of organization etc. This is a while ago but it's all out in the open. While I don't recall all the details, nothing sprung out. In fact it has mostly been volunteer work. So the answer is simple: Nothing, with the exception of costs, reimbursements and a small amount of attorneys fees.
User avatar
By SlopeSkimmer
#403226
gotandem wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:04 am
I have been very vocal in my opposition to the new RRRG insurance when it came to premium for small schools. I always thought that the premium for small schools was set too high and the additional rules that came with coverage were too limiting to make teaching HG attractive to an instructor. I am of the opinion that in order for HG to thrive we need schools/instructors in more places than we have now and we need tandem discovery flights to help pay the bills of a school and to give us more positive exposure. Heck that's why we are successful in the Houston area. Small schools in rural areas are important to keep hang gliding alive and accessible at the places where we fly. I make a living by hang gliding full time and I/we buy coverage from the RRRG as a large school.
I am passionate about this. I have had many heated conversations with Mark Forbes, Tim Herr and Randy Legget. All these three (and more) have worked hard to set up this RRRG. I attended the last board meeting in Golden to see these guys again in person and look them in the eye. In face to face conversations I was able to get a better understanding of what they are doing and why. While I still have many reservations, they are not with the RRRG guys. I still think that the cost for small schools is relatively high, compared to what large schools (me) pay. But I received a very clear answer as to why that is. I also still think that the bureaucracy and paperwork involved with being an instructor is getting ridiculous. The PASA certification certainly makes that worse, but the most ridiculous additional rules come from our own association. Not from the RRRG. Tim is USHPA's attorney. As such he is doing an excellent job. He is doing exactly what he is supposed to do and more, especially in his role as a the man who set up our captive. Tim is anything but a snake. In fact I got to know him as a very sympathetic, knowledgeable and hard working guy who truly means the best for our sports.
Bart Weghorst
Bart, has Tim ever sat you 15 other instructors down in a room at the Red Lobster and told you you have to by RRRG insurance or your ratings would be pulled? The other thing that freaks me out is Tim set up the rrrg in a way that could be considered racketeering and extortion. It is not legal and certainly not ethical threaten expulsion from the ratings program if you do not buy their insurance. One could say the rating system was voluntary but then why is it mandatory at most hang gliding sites? Then again maybe it is not mandatory, maybe these are also empty threats like in the case at Ed Levin Park where I am now flying without USHPA's permission. How can they have sites that are only for ushpa rated pilots in our public parks? Man, has anyone thought this through. I have read through the entire RRRG policy and there are stipulations in there that take the policy owner out of the picture and puts the USHPA in charge of settling a case brought against you, and your paying for it. This is a fact not something I made up. I did not want to be a part of a shared policy that could go under the minute Pat Denavan kills another student at Mission Soaring Center.

It is the individual instructors who built this community, (over 100 pilots in my case), it is my opinion that the ushpa and Tim Herr is working against all our hard work.
#403228
Mike, you wrote:
>Bart, has Tim ever sat you 15 other instructors down in a room at the Red Lobster and told you you have to by RRRG >insurance or your ratings would be pulled?
He did not. With all the changes that self-insurance brought to our organization, I think that this particular change was not well implemented. It's one of these many rough edges on a new design that should have been smoothed out before implementation. I understand your pain. You are also one of many instructors who are suffering from this. You bought insurance from a another provider. If the cost of RRRG insurance was comparable to what you bought, you would not have opposed it so much.
>The other thing that freaks me out is Tim set up the rrrg in a way that could be considered racketeering and extortion.
That goes too far for me.
> It is not legal threaten expulsion from the ratings program if you do not buy their insurance. One could say the rating >system was voluntary but then why is it mandatory at most hang gliding sites? Then again maybe it is not mandatory, >maybe these are also empty threats like in the case at Ed Levin Park where I am now flying without USHPA's permission. >How can they have sites that are only for ushpa rated pilots in our public parks? Man, has anyone thought this through.
Part of what you say here is because of policies that were set in place by the land owner. Not the RRRG/USHPA.

>I have read through the entire RRRG policy and there are stipulations in there that take the policy owner out of the picture and puts the USHPA in charge of settling a case brought against you, and your paying for it. This is a fact not >something I made up. I did not want to be a part of a shared policy that could go under the minute Pat Denavan kills >another student at Mission Soaring Center.
This is normal for almost all liability insurance.

>It is the individual instructors who built this community, (over 100 pilots in my case), it is my opinion that the ushpa and >Tim Herr is working against all our hard work.
I agree all the way with the first part of your sentence. With regards to the second part: Tim Herr's professional attitude is to treat us instructors as a liability because that's his job as an attorney. You can't fault him for that. He's actually doing a good job. The board should treat instructors as an asset but they don't. In the last meeting, I felt a strong desire with most people on the board to tighten the regulations on instruction and increase the bureaucracy. Sure there was a good initiative to grow the sport from what was called the hang gliding renaissance group. That group reiterated the need for more instructors. But when it came to a vote, every single issue that involved instruction made it harder to teach. And it was all voted in place. Often unanimously and that is not Tim's fault.
#403231
Does anyone else notice that the same USHPA representatives are the only ones that ever chime in to this forum and they seem to be the ultimate spokespersons yet never answer questions directly?

Here is the most recent intimidation letter asking all ushpa members to join in and poke Mike Jefferson in the eye if you see him. I'll put my take on each part in parenthesis after posting the original letter in it's entirety.

All,

It is truly sad when someone goes out of their way to undo decades of hard work and good will. Cooperative self governance is only successful when each person seeks to make things better, collectively, at each and every step. One person, deciding on their own, can destroy what everyone else has worked so hard to build.

Mr. Jefferson had done all the work to join the Professional Air Sports Association and to get insured through the Recreation Risk Retention Group. The wheels came off when he had to report his lesson days and pay his fair share for the insurance we have all worked so hard to make available. Every other Professional Air Sports Association School, small or large, looked at the work required and the cost for their insurance and said 'that this is more work than we really would want to do and it is an expense that we would rather not have to pay but we realize that this is the price we have to pay to reduce the injuries and accidents an assure ourselves of having professional liability insurance available so our businesses can continue reliably into the future.'
The difference in premium for Mr. Jefferson was in the neighborhood of an additional $500 to $800/year. Now everyone teaching has to pay 10% of revenue to the park and that still may not be enough to satisfy the administrative burden Mr. Jefferson has transferred from the RRRG and WOR to the park service.
Now Mr. Jefferson is trying to blame others for his actions and to unite others to join him as he campaigns against our national organization and the almost 10,000 members that rely on our form of consensus self governance.

We must remain united in our efforts to make our sport safer at every step and keep our consensus strong. I firmly believe that together we can shine a light on Mr. Jefferson's destructive behavior and his efforts will be seen for what they are.

Keep up the hard work and never give up,

D. Randy Leggett
USHPA #33069

PS
Please feel free to share this

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my edited version of this strong arm attempt:

All,

It is truly sad when someone goes out of their way to undo decades of hard work and good will. Cooperative self governance is only successful when each person seeks to make things better, collectively, at each and every step. One person, deciding on their own, can destroy what everyone else has worked so hard to build.

(Mike has a new way of flying for free and if we don't all gang up on him our group could suffer.)

Mr. Jefferson had done all the work to join the Professional Air Sports Association and to get insured through the Recreation Risk Retention Group. The wheels came off when he had to report his lesson days and pay his fair share for the insurance we have all worked so hard to make available.

(Mike Jefferson stoped paying his share on the last day of his RRRG policy the exact day his new EIB insurance policy started. Mike paid the RRRG 5300 dollars for 50 hang gliding lessons and then was told the 500 dollar "buy in" to the RRRG would not be returned. An average of 100 dollars per lesson is not bad for our instructors to pay, they will just have to suck it up and support our collective cause.)

Every other Professional Air Sports Association School, small or large, looked at the work required and the cost for their insurance and said 'that this is more work than we really would want to do and it is an expense that we would rather not have to pay but we realize that this is the price we have to pay to reduce the injuries and accidents an assure ourselves of having professional liability insurance available so our businesses can continue reliably into the future.'
The difference in premium for Mr. Jefferson was in the neighborhood of an additional $500 to $800/year. Now everyone teaching has to pay 10% of revenue to the park and that still may not be enough to satisfy the administrative burden Mr. Jefferson has transferred from the RRRG and WOR to the park service.

(Mike was under constant threat that his school would be shut down because the RRRG knew he was teaching hang gliding in a county park without a commercial use permit. Because Mike went legal with the Santa Clara County everyone else was forced to do the same. Mike ratted us all out! Mike decided to tell the parks and blew the RRRG extortion scam and now the USHPA is mad and all of the members should be mad at Mike too.)

Now Mr. Jefferson is trying to blame others for his actions and to unite others to join him as he campaigns against our national organization and the almost 10,000 members that rely on our form of consensus self governance.

(We should kick Mike out of the USHPA because he may start a competing organization like Bob did. We have 10,000 members so we are stronger than one troublemaker like Mike. Only problem with this is there are many like Mike who are dropping out of the RRRG but Mike is one of the most outspoken.)

We must remain united in our efforts to make our sport safer at every step and keep our consensus strong. I firmly believe that together we can shine a light on Mr. Jefferson's destructive behavior and his efforts will be seen for what they are.

(Shine a light, or tell all your friends about how Mike is not going along with ourway of doing things.)

Keep up the hard work and never give up,

D. Randy Leggett
USHPA #33069
(USHPA Cool-Aide Drinker and another snake in the grass)

PS
Please feel free to share this

(Like I said, if we get enough pilots mad at Mike we can harass him into seeing the light and bring him back into the organization.)

Randy, Steve, Tim, what was the purpose of this letter?
#403233
Every once in a while, it is good to read the USHPA’s Mission Statement:

Mission Statement

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association (USHPA) will pursue its mission through:

A. Advocacy. USHPA will interact, proactively when possible and reactively when required, with agencies, organizations and individuals whose interests affect our sport.
B. Communication. Externally, USHPA will advance the positive awareness of hang gliding and paragliding among the non-flying public. Internally, the organization will cultivate a culture of communication and transparency.
C. Community. USHPA will promote a sense of community among members both locally and nationally.
D. Flying sites. USHPA will support the development of new flying sites and the preservation of existing sites.
E. Learning. USHPA will support learning, in part by providing an organizational framework for instructor and pilot training and certification.
F. Safety. USHPA will steadily foster a culture of safety.

Mission Statement

Reading the Mission Statement gives one prospective.

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