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User avatar
By knumbknuts
#25086
I HAVE FOUND IT!

http://docs.sandiego.gov/municode/MuniC ... sion02.pdf

The reason why Air California Adventures is God of Hang Gliding is because Air California Adventures is the only HG/PG organization that has applied for the permit above.

The city doesn't know H4/P2 from sheet nor shinola. If there is some bureaucrat in San Diego city government that knows of, or even has buried in a file drawer, "Hang 4s and above at Torrey Pines," I'll eat my hat. They only say that you must have insurance, apply for a permit, and watch it get yoinked if you are not safe.

Bob! Parallel Plan B.

1. Register Torrey Hawks as a USHPA club.
2. Apply for site insurance (may require non-profit status)
3. Establish Torrey Hawks safe hang gliding rules (Borg them from Funston, IMO).
4. Apply for and get permit from San Diego.
5. Walk across the 2 acres that the leasee cannot restrict public access to.
6. Give said leasee 7$ or whatever the customary site use fee is.
7. FLY!

What am I missing here? Is this attainable?

I don't see why Air California Adventures would object because they are not liable. They get $7 and coffee shop patrons in return for a little more space taken up and the possibility of scaring off PGers.

By the way, do this and I guarantee you'll get a seat on that advisory panel, which helps accomplish one of the original Torrey Hawks goals. It would also build momentum for the next lease holder, should a Torrey Hawk get it.
User avatar
By brad
#25087
Lets see....H-3 being traded off to ensure concessionaire wins.
1. At this point nothing has been done. As a Regional Director
I was asked by a pilot to see if the rule could be modified to let
lesser hours pilots fly. Seemed like a reasonable request to me
and I have taken up the cause to see if I can make it happen.
This is not because of anything the hawks are doing. It is actually
in spite of what they are doing. I brought it to the table and was
met with a positive response from the concessionaire. To say
this is the hawks victory is simply not true.

why hasn't this changed in 35 years?
2. The rule has been cast in stone by the city. The chance to change
it may be before us now. This spring is the time frame I set as a
realistic goal. It has nothing to do with the agenda the hawks have
or their time frame.

the concessionaire suddenly making things better.
3. Sure don't want to see that, do we?

the hawks are changing the game
4. Yes you are. In my opinion, not entirely for the better.

Knumbnuts. It is apparent you are one of the cool ade drinkers
and are passoinate about your opinions. I have no problem
with that. All I keep asking for is that no one screws the pooch.

Brad Hall
User avatar
By sg
#25088
brad wrote: Knumbnuts. It is apparent you are one of the cool ade drinkers...
*sigh*
What did I say about name calling? Let's not escalate here.

There is nothing wrong about being passionate about getting fair access to Torrey for HG pilots, but koolaid drinker is over the line.
User avatar
By brad
#25094
Mighty thin line you have there. No offence intended.

Brad
User avatar
By tizeagle
#25097
admin cat
User avatar
By sg
#25099
Brad is not aware of the dreaded admin cat. :lol:

Image

Thin line? Calling someone a koolaid drinker is a serious insult to their intelligence. You have to remember, none of us here are aware of the contextual history between you and bob. We base our opinions on what we read here and so far, bob has been more civil than you. This is not helping your position brad, even if it is the correct position. (Im not saying it is either way). You will have a hard time garnering support if you keep alienating people by name calling. Just some friendly advice.
:thumbsup:
User avatar
By knumbknuts
#25100
Funny you should mention cool ade (sic), Brad.

I intend to buy some property in the Fresno foothills to use as an LZ below Tollhouse or the 168. It will be called "Johnstown" and the logo will be the Hey Kool Aid guy!

What befuddles me is that you are a hang glider and a USHPA director and you are personally insulting a brand new H3 whose only goal is to fly Torrey in the next two years and thinks has a found a way to do so, pleasing San Diego's requirements, the sport's need more more accessible flying, the current lease holder's lack of apparent desire to shoulder liability for hang gliding (all the while maintaining some income from the activity).

In the words of a commander I had in the Navy: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Interrogative Exclamation.

I have less sensitivity about my mental stability than I do about the attitude of USHPA directors toward hang glider pilots in their region.
Last edited by knumbknuts on Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By DocSoc
#25102
sg wrote:
brad wrote: Knumbnuts. It is apparent you are one of the cool ade drinkers...
*sigh*
What did I say about name calling? Let's not escalate here.

There is nothing wrong about being passionate about getting fair access to Torrey for HG pilots, but koolaid drinker is over the line.
It was red kool-aid!!! Everyone loves RED??? :roll:
User avatar
By knumbknuts
#25103
Jonestown was grape, if my memory serves from the 70s.
User avatar
By DocSoc
#25104
knumbknuts wrote:Funny you should mention cool ade (sic), Brad.

I intend to buy some property in the Fresno foothills to use as an LZ below Tollhouse or the 168. It will be called "Johnston" and the logo will be the Hey Kool Aid guy!

What befuddles me is that you are a hang glider and a USHPA director and you are personally insulting a brand new H3 whose only goal is to fly Torrey in the next two years and thinks has a found a way to do so, pleasing San Diego's requirements, the sport's need more more accessible flying, the current lease holder's lack of apparent desire to shoulder liability for hang gliding (all the while maintaining some income from the activity).

In the words of a commander I had in the Navy: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Interrogative Exclamation.

I have less sensitivity about my mental stability than I do about the attitude of USHPA directors toward hang glider pilots in their region.
HeavyPilot and I :ditto: this although he just got his H4.... but still it's important to us!
User avatar
By bobk
#25107
There is a lot of history here, and from my experience,
Brad has decided to back the concessionaire, period.

I tried to get Brad to nominate an HG pilot for the Soaring
Council, and he refused. In the end, he chose a PG pilot
who was really selected by the concessionaire. Brad
approved of this appointment after the fact, and after
the appointee showed up at the Soaring Council saying
that Brad had appointed him, when in fact, Brad had
never even met him or knew who he was. I would have
thought that stunt alone would have turned Brad off to
this new appointee, but his loyalty to the concessionaire
appears to be unbounded.

I'm sorry to have to bring this up, but I think it's important
for everyone to know what has taken place with the past
Soaring Council appointments. And, of course, I have
plenty of evidence to back this up if anyone wants it.
Please ask me off-line (bobk@bluebottle.com).

OK, now, put on your asbestos reading goggles...
Last edited by bobk on Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By sg
#25110
I think were about to have a he said, he said moment. Im not sure there is a point to posting stuff like this without accompanying evidence.
User avatar
By DocSoc
#25112
knumbknuts wrote:I HAVE FOUND IT!

http://docs.sandiego.gov/municode/MuniC ... sion02.pdf

The reason why Air California Adventures is God of Hang Gliding is because Air California Adventures is the only HG/PG organization that has applied for the permit above.

The city doesn't know H4/P2 from sheet nor shinola. If there is some bureaucrat in San Diego city government that knows of, or even has buried in a file drawer, "Hang 4s and above at Torrey Pines," I'll eat my hat. They only say that you must have insurance, apply for a permit, and watch it get yoinked if you are not safe.

Bob! Parallel Plan B.

1. Register Torrey Hawks as a USHPA club.
2. Apply for site insurance (may require non-profit status)
3. Establish Torrey Hawks safe hang gliding rules (Borg them from Funston, IMO).
4. Apply for and get permit from San Diego.
5. Walk across the 2 acres that the leasee cannot restrict public access to.
6. Give said leasee 7$ or whatever the customary site use fee is.
7. FLY!

What am I missing here? Is this attainable?

I don't see why Air California Adventures would object because they are not liable. They get $7 and coffee shop patrons in return for a little more space taken up and the possibility of scaring off PGers.

By the way, do this and I guarantee you'll get a seat on that advisory panel, which helps accomplish one of the original Torrey Hawks goals. It would also build momentum for the next lease holder, should a Torrey Hawk get it.
I'm with you BROTHER! let's show up and FLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
By bobk
#25113
I'll wait for Brad to tell his side of the story before I
escalate with evidence. If Brad is willing to admit
that he appointed the concessionaire's own choice,
then there's no need for a "he said, he said" moment.
I'll keep my fingers crossed ... and my powder dry.
Last edited by bobk on Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By knumbknuts
#25116
Well,

Whatever the case at that meeting, my idea got somewhat hijacked,

What do non-Regional-directors think of my seven-point outline of a plan?
User avatar
By Lobido
#25119
I did not understand there was a rebuttal from Brad to KKs plan, or at least it did not make sense to me. Sounds like a good plan.
User avatar
By tizeagle
#25122
Lobido what do you read from the lease as a lawyer.
User avatar
By bobk
#25124
Let me start by saying that the Torrey Hawks already are
a USHPA chapter (#270 - check the USHPA web site).

The rest of the plan may need a little more thought. I am
hoping that we won't have to go to that extreme, and that
we can gain enough membership to convince the City
(and Brad) that we have a perspective that deserves to
be heard. Part of that needs to happen soon since the
City will be forming the Advisory Board any time now. I
think that getting the Hawks recognized by the Soaring
Council (maybe at the next meeting) will be a good first
step, and I know that I'm not helping matters by duelling
with Brad over his past actions. But I have to make the
choice as to whether anything I could possibly say or do
would sway Brad's opinion. I am afraid that it won't.

I like the ideas and enthusiasm, but let's wait to see if
we can get approved for the Soaring Council and the
Advisory Board in this next 30 days. The biggest thing
that any of us can do now that will certainly help is to
try to get new members. That will help us in all cases
because it gives us a stronger voice and more human
resources (maybe some lawyers, or politicians, or
friends of either).
User avatar
By brad
#25125
Knumbnuts,

I already said no offence intended. Sorry if you were. I was refering
to your steadfast support of the hawks and in no way meant it as
a personal attack on you. Don't know what else I can say.

Brad
User avatar
By bobk
#25126
Brad, you could say that you will ask your Soaring Council
appointee to vote to allow the Hawks on the Soaring Council.
That would be a fair thing to do for all the pilots who want to
see some HG representation on the Council, and for those
who have a difference of opinion with the current concessionaire.
Is that too much to ask?

Let me add that I think this topic is getting way too hot right now.
It's almost impossible to keep up with the posts. I think we've all
had our say, and I think it might be time to give the server a little
rest. Let's all think about this for a little while and let the dust
settle just a bit.
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