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User avatar
By joefaust
#404664
Let involuntarylist possibly file your HG ratings and special skills.
U.S. only.
United States Hang Gliding Rating System
independent of
clubs, corporations, associations, schools, instructors, businesses
to fulfill self-regulation per FAR 103
for recreational hang gliding in the U.S

http://involuntarylist.org
User avatar
By Paul H
#404665
joefaust wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:43 am
Let involuntarylist possibly file your HG ratings and special skills.
U.S. only.
United States Hang Gliding Rating System
independent of
clubs, corporations, associations, schools, instructors, businesses
to fulfill self-regulation per FAR 103
for recreational hang gliding in the U.S

http://involuntarylist.org
.....and independant of any skills, responsibility, or good judgement.
User avatar
By miraclepieco
#404666
Thanks Joe, I'm proud to be on that list. And I see I'm in good company with some of the most venerable names in the sport.
User avatar
By NMERider
#404671
Paul H wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:16 am
joefaust wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:43 am
Let involuntarylist possibly file your HG ratings and special skills.
U.S. only.
United States Hang Gliding Rating System
independent of
clubs, corporations, associations, schools, instructors, businesses
to fulfill self-regulation per FAR 103
for recreational hang gliding in the U.S

http://involuntarylist.org
.....and independant of any skills, responsibility, or good judgement.
And an anonymous domain registered in Canada and a Texas-based domain owner. Just more shilling from USH*wks.com.
By once&future
#404672
Not sure how I'd fill out the form in any case. I was a hang 5 for about 15 years until my USHGA rating lapsed. These days I'm officially a USHPA Hang 3, but I haven't re-upped in the last couple of years. So I'm either a 3, 5 or 0 - who knows. Probably best not to bother - sort of like my feeling about the current USHPA.
User avatar
By DMarley
#404673
I thought that there was supposed to be no more mention or material or anything from the irresponsible, untrustworthy, free-loading us-auks.org, Joe?
User avatar
By hgflying
#404675
I'll take two H5s. Throw in a PhD while you are at it.

> independent of ... instructors

Ratings are used for safety, and should not be an "internet degree" you sign up for.
User avatar
By joefaust
#404680
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The agency involuntarylist is independent of instructors. No instructor can force a stating of a rating at involuntarylist. Raw procedural actions and paperwork may not suffice to have a rating stated at involuntarylist. No fees are collected. Ratings last forever and cannot be dropped. There are no renewals. Each pilot is 100% responsible for acting in the moment relative to readiness for safe acting.

Instructors remain an important sector of recreational hang gliding. Mentors and coaches are also important sectors that play in advancing safety and enjoyment in recreational hang gliding. Poor instructors, mentors, and coaches may occur. May pilots, their instructors, their mentors, and their coaches well gather to effect safe and confident gliding and soaring.

Instructors and anyone else is invited to feed information about a pilot into the involuntarylist files.

Suggestions, questions, corrections, etc. are invited from the entire hang gliding community
for advancing involuntarylist.
http://www.involuntarylist.org/about.html
http://www.involuntarylist.org/QandA.html
User avatar
By joefaust
#404681
once&future wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:21 pm
Not sure how I'd fill out the form in any case. I was a hang 5 for about 15 years until my USHGA rating lapsed. These days I'm officially a USHPA Hang 3, but I haven't re-upped in the last couple of years. So I'm either a 3, 5 or 0 - who knows. Probably best not to bother - sort of like my feeling about the current USHPA.
once@future,
Send your HG data to involuntarylist to start a file on your case. See the email addresses on the index page. involuntarylist is independent of USHPA and independent of other clubs and associations.
User avatar
By joefaust
#404682
DMarley wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:58 pm
I thought that there was supposed to be no more mention or material or anything from the irresponsible, untrustworthy, free-loading us-auks.org, Joe?
DMarley,
I do not see any such material in this very focused involuntarylist.org topic. Your trio of adjectives for that association are, I guess, owned by you; I suppose you feel you have profound proof for your position; when I examine that scene, I cannot justify the adjectives you just used. Differences; but that discussion is off-topic; maybe open up a topic for your case.
Lift,
Joe
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User avatar
By joefaust
#404683
hgflying wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:05 am
I'll take two H5s. Throw in a PhD while you are at it.

> independent of ... instructors

Ratings are used for safety, and should not be an "internet degree" you sign up for.
hgflying,
involuntarylist states rating referring to pilot proficiency over knowledge, judgment, and skill needed for recreational hang gliding safety and enjoyment.
=========================
Aug 26, 2018, version of "about" involuntarylist:
involuntarylist
United States Hang Gliding Rating System is a national independent ratings certifying agency regarding pilots' proficiency in solo recreational hang gliding without addressing towing, event competing, tandem flying, instructor businesses, or powered flight realms. involuntarylist relies on mentors, observers, examinations, and pilot involvement in the evidenciary process. Interested persons may readily find a pilot's ratings for such domain at
http://involuntarylist.org

Disclosure:
involuntarylist is not affiliated with any hang gliding association nor hang glider business. No fees are charged to recreational hang glider pilots for the services of involuntarylist. The team of recreational hang gliding mentors volunteer their expertise to bring success to this self-regulatory service.

Application:
Ratings are just one part of the sport's safety and enjoyment package; any launch calls upon immediate appraisal of all key parameters to effect safe and enjoyable gliding and soaring; the physics of wind, weather, wing, and immediate conditions of the pilot and the environment do not get altered by a rating. A pilot is encouraged never to rely on a rating for successful launches, glides, and landings. Ratings are part of the important social and communications aspects of hang gliding activity. Keeping skills and knowledge current is more important than a declared rating; a responsible pilot will ever act within his or her present and immediate readiness relative to immediate environmental conditions. Readiness may slide or be reduced at any time. Williness to say "No" for a launch is implicit in carrying any rating.

Disclaimer:
Pilots are 100% responsible for their actions in the world. Having a rating does not reduce that responsibility.

Warning:
Hang gliding has the potential of hurting oneself, others, objects, crops, structures, and animals. Any pilot is encouraged to study profoundly such potential and how to avoid injuring anyone or anything by recreationally hang gliding.
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User avatar
By joefaust
#404684
Paul H wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:16 am
joefaust wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:43 am
Let involuntarylist possibly file your HG ratings and special skills.
U.S. only.
United States Hang Gliding Rating System
independent of
clubs, corporations, associations, schools, instructors, businesses
to fulfill self-regulation per FAR 103
for recreational hang gliding in the U.S

http://involuntarylist.org
.....and independent of any skills, responsibility, or good judgement.
Paul H,
Differently: involuntarylist embraces skills, responsibility, and good judgement.
Best to you and yours,
Joe
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User avatar
By joefaust
#404685
NMERider wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:34 pm
And an anonymous domain registered in Canada and a Texas-based domain owner. Just more shilling from USH*wks.com.
Jonathan,
There is no shilling from any third party. The involuntarylist has a keen focus without initiation from MGF nor your mentioned site. The domain is registered by the webmaster of the site via a generic method. I registered and paid for the site in volunteer effort for the involuntarylist.org == I've registered over 320 domains via that same generic process; the Register4less company handles millions of websites in a similar manner. Common practice; such reduces spam approaches to Register4less' clients.
Best of Lift to you,
Joe
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User avatar
By Paul H
#404686
joefaust wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:13 am
Paul H wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:16 am
joefaust wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:43 am
Let involuntarylist possibly file your HG ratings and special skills.
U.S. only.
United States Hang Gliding Rating System
independent of
clubs, corporations, associations, schools, instructors, businesses
to fulfill self-regulation per FAR 103
for recreational hang gliding in the U.S

http://involuntarylist.org
.....and independent of any skills, responsibility, or good judgement.
Paul H,
Differently: involuntarylist embraces skills, responsibility, and good judgement.
Best to you and yours,
Joe
Seated001.JPG
Your "Ratings" list does none of that.
User avatar
By joefaust
#404688
Paul H,
The ratings system may embrace responsibly your skills, knowledge set with adequate judgement.

You may initiate a file at involuntarylist; use one of its email addresses; file your data and experiences, your responsible habits, and your instances of good judgement and your responsibility embraces. :thumbsup:
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Your synergy may go toward advancing recreational hang gliding, Paul.
http://www.involuntarylist.org/QandA.html

Why do I not see "FL" stated?
FL is majorly assumed as involuntarylist realm does not cover towing, power, tandem. We have taken off FL where it was once stated. Though FL is not universal, it is nearly so. Wheeled rolling launch, tow launch, aero tow, foot-launch aero tow, human-powered launch, bungee launch, balloon-drop launch, blimp launch, wind-only prone launch, etc. are skills pilots may develop; but these will not be stated in involuntarylist. However, links following a pilot's rating statement in involuntarylist may well lead to knowing his or her full skill set.
[/quote]
User avatar
By DMarley
#404689
Joe,
How do you believe any property owning / managing entity will take your organization seriously when:

1) Your org has no mechanism for pilot behavior and skills correction: You do not revoke ratings due to any bad behaviors or bad skills. Your org has no means of correcting it's bad actors, so they will be impossible to control within your system.

2) The org has no proven rating system at all. In fact, no rating of your org has any definition of skills associated with it. :shock:

3) The org believes that video of flights are good enough for proof of skill for a rating level. Any gov't agency will balk at that because they have their own rating systems in place for their own people, and those don't have the risk associated with their positions that HG does, and they certainly don't approve position increments on video, so how would any owner/manager entity believe that they can trust your rating system?

If I was developing my property for HG flight, there would be little chance of me allowing anyone rated under your system to fly on my property. You provide no assurances that any pilot under your rating system
a) is trustworthy (no mechanism for skill or behavioral correction)
b) can control himself (no training mechanisms in place)
c) possesses the appropriate skills (no training mechanisms in place, nor rating definitions)
d) is himself/herself financially responsible and is backed by a large organization of responsible pilots.

Nope. Wouldn't do it.
User avatar
By magentabluesky
#404691
Self certification is the back bone of the FAA’s safety culture.

If you don’t like the concept of self certification then don’t fly the airlines.
§ 117.5 Fitness for duty. (d) As part of the dispatch or flight release, as applicable, each flightcrew member must affirmatively state he or she is fit for duty prior to commencing flight
. . . .
The FAA understands a pilot may have been able to perform all the required tasks on check ride day, but must be mature and responsible and self certify themselves before each and every flight in their capabilities to be fit for duty to be safe.

I cannot tell you how many times I left a check ride examiner’s office with ink still wet on a new certificate with the words: "This is just a license to learn". And I am still learning.
The I'M SAFE Checklist is taught early in flight training and is used throughout a pilot's professional career to assess their overall readiness for flight when it comes to illness, medication, stress, alcohol, fatigue, and emotion. Link
. . . .
There are FAA log book record requirements under various parts of the regulations for proof of currency requirements. These log book entries are recorded through the honor, truth, and integrity of the pilot, self certification.

A college professor, Howard Everhart, said, "You can follow all the rules and have a pocket full of certificates; but if you do not go beyond those requirements and use your head, you can still kill yourself. You can be legally dead."

Every time we conduct a Part 103 operation we are self certifying the flight as a single occupant assuming the responsibility and risk for recreation or sport purposes only.

Preamble to Part 103

We have an immense amount of freedom if we just show responsibility following a set of minimum rules. The FAA is so great. I cannot tell you how fantastic the FAA is to us. Appreciate it.

Through the State Recreation Use Immunity Laws the vast majority of Part 103 flights legally do not require insurance. If you are sponsoring a Flying Meet, Contest, or other open invitation with or without a fee there will be an insurance requirement. Just "Plain Jane" free flying, the land owner is legally protected under most State Recreation Use Immunity Laws. The land owner has no need or responsibility to check anyone’s ratings. There are no ratings to check.

There is no pilot licensing requirement for Part 103 by the FAA. Any rating program in the United States is a self certification program.
The FAA wrote:The USHGA's self-regulation program lacks the legal authority to enforce requirements to ensure the safety of others. There is no requirement for any hang glider operator to be a member of the USHGA. (Preamble to Part 103)
. . . .
So, as a self certifying community, what better way to document a pilot’s skills and abilities than to have an on-line "Pilot My Space" with personal affidavits, third party affidavits, log book entries, videos, and knowledge based tests? This can be stored on-line, in your phone, computer, or in the cloud.

May I point out, there is a totally different knowledge and skill set required to fly at a NPS site of Fort Funston than Yosemite. Fort Funston requires a ridge soaring experience while Yosemite requires high altitude no wind takeoff landing skills. If the NPS wants to determine if you have the skill set and experience to fly NPS sites, what better way than to just show them your experience? Show a video of your ridge soaring skills to fly the Fort and a high altitude takeoff and landing to fly Yosemite. The alternative could be a revision to Part 103 requiring pilot licensing. Let’s beat them to the punch.

This would be your Part 103 resume.

In this new day and age, this is what the millennials expect. Why hold on to some old antiquated self certifying system? As an alternative you can still hold on to the old with third party affidavits, the current rating system.

Just as he was at the beginning of the Hang Gliding movement, Joe Faust is still innovative with a progressive imagination, truly recycled into a millennial.

I humbly bow in honor of Joe Faust a founding father to the USHPA.
User avatar
By joefaust
#404692
DMarley wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:42 pm
Joe,
How do you believe any property owning / managing entity will take your organization seriously when:
1) Your org has no mechanism for pilot behavior and skills correction: You do not revoke ratings due to any bad behaviors or bad skills. Your org has no means of correcting it's bad actors, so they will be impossible to control within your system.
.... [[truncated quote; I, Joe, will face each point in separate further responses. ]]
Thank you, DMarley, for your considered question. I will separate each of your points in reply in separate posts until covering your invested time and thought.

For the 1) question:
A. involuntarylist has a several-layers of mechanism for facing pilot behavior and skills correction. The text yet has implicit tell of such; the text will advance to make such more clear. involuntarylist keeps up close communication with many of the pilots whose ratings are stated in involuntarylist; if direct communication is blocked, then alternative means of communication will be followed.
B. Next to a pilot's rating and skill declaration are sometimes informational links appended that relate to that pilot. Those informational links may be to posts in forums or to reports published on web pages or to online available documents regarding that pilot. Let's hope any such linked information is about positive matters; but in some cases those links could be about the questionable or bad behavior that you mentioned. Indeed, because involuntarylist is building right now, one does not see yet any case of a link addressing bad behavior. When such a case arises, then a cautionary symbol will be placed on that pilot's rating line; such will signal a reviewer to look into the matter about that pilot more closely.

Upon studying such linked information, a property owner may choose to exclude that particular pilot from use of involved land; property owners will vary on their personal choices; involuntarylist will not make the decision for the property owner or land manager. involuntarylist will not remove a lifetime-stated rating; it is up to the pilot to be current; a pilot could go non-current in one second for various reasons; and pilots vary in their return to currency. Any pilot intending to launch is to become current for that launch; ratings do not bring currency. Ratings mean that the pilot's life had been reviewed for matters that pertain to recreational hang gliding to a certified level of proficiency. Each rated pilot to be rated involves the understanding that currency is up to the pilot for each launch, not packets of years; yes, each launch. involuntarylist respects the pilots' taking on such responsibility. Even an involuntarylist stated rating of H1 encompasses the pilot taking on such 100% responsibility to become current for each launch/flight/landing, whatever.

In needed cases, the community of recreational hang gliders will be publishing communal pressure over a pilot; involuntarylist will communicate with the pilot and place the warning links appropriate. When things are very firmly proven and amendments are not made, then a statement next to the pilot's rating line may be posted. Such statements about a live person will be risky, clear, and to the points needing to be addressed; there are thresholds about these matters.

More on these matters will gradually unfold.
=========================================
In the involuntarylist Q&A version of Aug. 25, 2018, was:
What are the links I see adjacent to some pilot's ratings?
Occasionally public-domain matter concerning a pilot will be linked. A pilot may request we remove one or more links.
That Q&A point is still published today.
==========================
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Steve Cohen collection
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User avatar
By joefaust
#404694
DMarley wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:42 pm
Joe,
How do you believe any property owning / managing entity will take your organization seriously when:
---
2) The org has no proven rating system at all. In fact, no rating of your org has any definition of skills associated with it. :shock:
---
Continuing reply to DMarley's questions. I face now his "2)" :
DMarley,
On your "2):
Facts are different. involuntarylist has a proven rating system; indeed aspects of the system have been proving themselves for about 50 years. Further, the ratings stated for pilots at involuntarylist are defined by process; that process is associated with the stated rating. The process may vary for a particular individual, but there is a large flow as follows: Respected ratings developed within respected club or within a respected instructorship or within a respected mentorship or within a respected coachingship , or within a respected commercial school, or/and expressed publicly through well-ordered state or national organizations are reviewed and potentially certified by involuntarylist before publishing the statement for a given pilot; hence involuntarylist assures one step further than just those spread ratings; involuntarylist is not limited by the politics of the clubs, associations, schools, or instructorships; a bad acting school or bad acting instructor or bad acting club, etc. might be generating poorly supported/reviewed/witnessed ratings; sometimes money bias the matters within entities that grant ratings upon fees. involuntarylist stays apart from those potholes and stays independent of such matters while reviewing all the data it can about an extant ratings; those extant ratings have borrowed definitions and subsumed definitions; but those processes do not force or control the certifying process at involuntarylist. involuntarylist frequently adds a layer on top of what occurred with the other mentioned agents.

In some cases a pilot rating process will be apart from commercial schools, commercial instructorships, clubs, associations; these cases may be self-taught processes with mentor and coach involvement. Observers and self-revelation will often bring data forward. involuntarylist will collect the wide data in file and often involve observations, interviews, and examinations. Mention of things to study and practice are often given to these cases. Checklists. Q&A. Particularizations. And more as needed for a case.

So, definitions are outstanding, but clarity will grow as needed. As a current rule try: as good or better than the best out there.

Lift,
Joe
Just saw a robust post while I was composing my reply.
DMarley, I will be back after some hours to face the remainder of your several-pointed quest.
User avatar
By DMarley
#404695
joefaust wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:45 pm
....Upon studying such linked information, a property owner may choose to exclude that particular pilot from use of involved land; property owners will vary on their personal choices; involuntarylist will not make the decision for the property owner or land manager. ....
Whoa..... hold on there.... you're saying that someone representing the owner/entity will need to be on-site during all flying hours in order to verify each pilot's rating and acceptance? I believe this is what it will likely come to with this system you are describing here. This will most certainly lead to either the property not being open to HG because of the ownership not wanting to devote time and resources to policing pilots, or it will lead to higher costs (higher site fees) to cover those substantial, added resources. If not a full time 'boots on the ground' approach, then some pilot blacklist for the site. But still, the ownership would then still have to review all applicants, and continue reviewing their flying pilots.
With the current ushpa system, this task is always handled by the club associated with the site, and therefor the ownership has no responsibility in this regard. I'm bettin' that there could be legal ramifications against the ownership with your system too, if a black-listed pilot flys and then is involved in an accident or other scenario.

involuntarylist will not remove a lifetime-stated rating; it is up to the pilot to be current; a pilot could go non-current in one second for various reasons; and pilots vary in their return to currency. Any pilot intending to launch is to become current for that launch; ratings do not bring currency. Ratings mean that the pilot's life had been reviewed for matters that pertain to recreational hang gliding to a certified level of proficiency. Each rated pilot to be rated involves the understanding that currency is up to the pilot for each launch, not packets of years; yes, each launch. involuntarylist respects the pilots' taking on such responsibility. Even an involuntarylist stated rating of H1 encompasses the pilot taking on such 100% responsibility to become current for each launch/flight/landing, whatever.
Ok.
In needed cases, the community of recreational hang gliders will be publishing communal pressure over a pilot; involuntarylist will communicate with the pilot and place the warning links appropriate. When things are very firmly proven and amendments are not made, then a statement next to the pilot's rating line may be posted. Such statements about a live person will be risky, clear, and to the points needing to be addressed; there are thresholds about these matters.
Ok, who will be allowed to submit the comments about a pilot? Only mentors/examiners, or merely any pilot? I can think of quite a few instances that if it were up to a mob of pilots, the pilot in question might have lost a rating or more, all because he used far more skill in many of his flights than others could fathom. So they all publicly blamed him for numerous grievances, but calmer heads prevailed, or it wasn't even a real issue to worry about.
Anyway.... this all comes down to the last issue of the ownership reviewing all the credentials of each pilot, on every flying day. This could be the last nail in the coffin for flight at any site. There's got to be a better solution that you can come up with.

:wink:

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