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User avatar
By danmoser
#383639
Climate Change is a VERY complicated issue, and very important that the public understand it...
Some think that reading a 3-paragraph blogpost has allowed them to uncover a global conspiracy, and instantly makes them smarter than thousands of climatologists who have devoted their careers to it.. but not so fast.

If you want to get a comprehensive report on it from a top notch investigative science journalist, I highly recommend a series of 32 videos from Peter Hadfield.. AKA potholer54.
.. get comfortable .. it's thorough.
Peter exhaustively researched the issue, then explains things very well in easy-to-understand terms.. with a peppering of dry British humor thrown in to make it entertaining.
He's critical of exaggerators on both sides .. pissing off Gore & Monckton alike, and thoroughly covers the email scandal too.
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User avatar
By pablog
#383648
The guy is a physicist.
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User avatar
By adyr
#383660
This is also a physicist. The above physicist is non existing compared to him. Dyson name will remain a long time in physics, the no name from above will not.
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User avatar
By pablog
#383663
adyr wrote:This is also a physicist. The above physicist is non existing compared to him. Dyson name will remain a long time in physics, the no name from above will not.
Who would dare to compare Derek Muller or anybody else to Freeman Dyson ! :crazy:

You should have read my message as "this unknown physicist is not a polititian, he is not trying to sell you anything at all and, in addition, he's good at outreaching", rather than "this unkown guy speaks the truth because he's a physicist". Come on !

I'll watch the video you posted. I'm sure it'll be enlightening :thumbsup:
User avatar
By adyr
#383681
Unknown guys might not be politicians, but they might have some interests (other than scientific) in some issue, or they might be merely brainwashed into submission and they would act as a good brainwashed religious folk would: spread the blind belief.

This is absolutely irrelevant, nevertheless. A science does not care how many supporters has, how many 'believe' in it, how many rationalizations they have.

One either has the power of prediction or he has not. A theory that either cannot predict or can predict everything (as in a statement and its negation, too) is garbage.

Climate models cannot predict correctly and it's really worse, they deny themselves. They also deny real sciences.
User avatar
By pablog
#383702
Not sure what are you talking about.

Science has to do with understanding the facts, it's not about having an opinion. You have to go to the sources to get a clear picture of what is going on, either in climate science or anywhere else. Just listening to people biased by their commercial interests does not make any good, to anyone.

Climate models cannot predict what will happen tomorrow (that's the role of meteorology, in fact) but they can tell what the Earth will look like in thousand years.
User avatar
By adyr
#383704
but they can tell what the Earth will look like in thousand years.
Do you have a proof of that? I would like a mathematical proof, but I would be amazed by an empirical check. Maybe you have a time machine to jump one thousand years into the future to measure things and come back with the results.

If you have none, you have a blind belief, that is, a religion.
User avatar
By pablog
#383707
The final proof is the experiment. I'm afraid I cannot do that experiment right now, but if you read the right sources you'll learn that science has verified means (results of experiments) to know what happens to the properties of a gas when you saturate it with CO2 or methane. Results of experiments ? Look at Venus for a close example.

And, as an active physicist, I can tell you by heart that I don't take anything for granted and don't "believe" in absolute truths. Not to talk about religion.

Hopefully the weather (not the clima) improves so we can spend our time hang gliding. I'd sincerely prefer to have a great flight with you rather than still arguing with you about epistemology :thumbsup:
User avatar
By adyr
#383710
You probably don't know, but there was this discussion already on this site. I suggest you read it before you repeat the same fallacies all over again.

Yes, it is very well known what it happens when you 'saturate' a gas with CO2 (that is, 100% CO2).

It is not as you believe.

The heat conductivity drops to about half, heat capacity increases, lapse rate changes, too. Those things are largely unrelated with the IR spectrum (one might link the adiabatic lapse rate, or rather its depth to it, though) but related with the molecular mass. One can check that this is true empirically, too, against an argon control (a non greenhouse gas).

Of course, to be able to do the comparison one must keep the other things, such as pressure, the same.

On Venus is definitively not the same. The pressure is more than 90 times than on Earth. There are strong greenhouse gases there too (no, CO2 is a weak greenhouse gas), which are virtually absent on Earth. Sulfuric acid for example. I would recommend a comparison of its IR spectrum with that of CO2, one might have a surprise. Yeap, H2SO4 is more complex, less symmetric than CO2 and it's a polar molecule on top on that. Enough good reasons for CO2 to be a very weak greenhouse gas and H2SO4 a strong one.

It's worthless to enumerate all differences between Venus and Earth, anyway, not only nobody sane enough would expect to increase the pressure on Earth almost 100 times due of CO2 emissions, but nobody sane enough would expect the atmosphere to become 100% CO2. In both cases you would be in a humongous s*it and that not because of global warming. Current CO2 is about 400 ppm (that's parts per million) which in a sense means that there is almost no CO2 in atmosphere. Even the wildest alarmist dreams cannot imagine such emissions to increase it at Venusian levels. After certain levels Henry's law hits hard, oceans are quite good at absorbing CO2. Especially with life in them. Technically one cannot even 'dream' of having ancient levels of CO2 back in the atmosphere, because CO2 does not get fixed only in fossil fuels, it gets fixed in carbonate rocks, too, for example.

There is a single accessible planet where one could look at CO2 effects, sort of isolated and that is Mars. The partial pressure of CO2 is higher than that of CO2 for Earth (and it's quite a bit more of it, from the 'greenhouse gas' perspective, easy to realize when you put the gravity into account). But for that there is a surprise: the greenhouse effect is basically absent. The 'huge' global warming because of CO2 is not really there.

But if you really, really want to check against Venus, check at a height where pressure is 1 atm. Adjust for the distance from the Sun. Have a surprise :)
User avatar
By pablog
#383711
:surrender: :surrender: :surrender: :surrender: :surrender: :surrender: :surrender:

I surrender by exhaustion not by the strength of your arguments.
User avatar
By adyr
#383712
Yeah, a good excuse :thumbsup:
User avatar
By adyr
#388813
From CO2 to climate is a loooong path. By the way, the fact that there is that 'much' CO2 in the atmosphere is a very good thing. Still not enough yet, but better than suffocation level for plants.

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User avatar
By Nicos
#388814
OK adyr, I give up too.

Even though we know exactly what happens when it is emulated in a artificial biosphere... let's continue to exponentially increase CO2 levels and see what happens... oh wait, we are doing that already, yipee, we're saved!!

:thumbsup:

:surrender: :surrender: :surrender: :surrender: :surrender: :surrender:
User avatar
By adyr
#388822
Of course we know. Plants grow better, heat conductivity of the atmosphere practically does not change.
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