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Moderator: mods

Ban soar8hours?

strong yes
45
44%
yes
17
17%
no
21
20%
strong no
20
19%
User avatar
By 1htalp9
#367406
I do it every day when I turn on my tv or surf the internet.
By JackieB
#367407
It's important to keep in mind that this isn't about freedom of speech or First Amendment Rights. We all have those and I am grateful. It's about what sg wants for the forum and what the community values as standards.

I advocate for compassion for animals and can sometimes be found standing on a sidewalk with a sign protesting what I believe to be cruel. I'm on public property and I expect to be called names occasionally. I always thank the police for their service in protecting that right, and I'm overwhelmed with gratitude to all who have died so that I can exercise my First Amendment rights.

However, if I step onto private property with my protest sign, I should expect to be ejected and possibly even arrested. That's what we're talking about here. This is sg's forum. Private property, if you will.
By Heli1
#367409
And for how long time are the banned persons "unwanted" ?
Is it a lifetime sentence?
I strongly belive that anyone can make a mistake.
And should be given a second chance after their "trial" and punishment :?
Jan
User avatar
By flybop
#367410
This is not a public forum and ultimately it is up to SG to make the decision. I come to this place to learn about HG, to share HG with fellow pilots and to do what I can to help promote HG.

This place is (and should be) a refuge for all of us from politics, hateful speech, of any kind, as well as discussions other than hang gliding. Thankfully for the most part most of us do not engage in politics and controversial topics. Soar managed to drag this place into a dark area that thankfully is not welcome here.

Perhaps this can be turned into a learning experience and warning to anyone who may feel the need to spew such hatred in the future. IMHO Soar (and everyone else) should be put on notice that in the future any such speech will result in an immediate banning, or at least a period of suspension.

On a personal note to Soar: You managed to severely damage and to drive a very dark and an overwhelmingly wrong stereotype. Speech like yours only serves to make racial tensions worse and to undermine yourself. IF and only IF you have it in your heart to make a sincere apology then please do. If not, then perhaps you should make SG's decision for him.
User avatar
By Dave Gills
#367416
:popcorn:
Last edited by Dave Gills on Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By JackieB
#367418
Heli1 wrote:And for how long time are the banned persons "unwanted" ?
Is it a lifetime sentence?
I strongly belive that anyone can make a mistake.
And should be given a second chance after their "trial" and punishment :?
Jan
I also agree and am grateful to have been welcomed back by those who I offended once I learned to do better.
User avatar
By Dave Jacob
#367420
I don't tend to keep track of what each poster writes. Part of it is because I don't have the memory for it and the other is I don't have a personality that bends that way.

That said, I do think their needs to be rules on the forum if it is to be healthy and serve the purpose that it was created for. But I also think we kill the org if we overly embrace political correctness or anarchy.

Using votes to ban posters is not an idea I am comfortable with. No one on the org questions SG's right to moderate the org as he sees fit. And voting is likely to polarize individuals in community that needs no other reasons for division.

I would, however, suggest that a public warning for rule violation is appropriate followed by banning only after it is determined that the poster is unwilling to modify the offending behavior. This both shows moderate but firm regulation on the part of administrator and reinforces to all of us where the lines are drawn.
User avatar
By HGXC
#367424
sg wrote:
1htalp9 wrote:The post was horrible, full of vitriol. We should all speak up against that kind of bigotry. But to react by banning is worse, IMO. It makes us as intolerant as he seems to be. We are all adults here, big enough to recognize that sputum for what it is.
So if someone came into your home and spewed s*** like this, over and over again, you would keep inviting them back? Correct?
SG I don't think anyone's arguing with you. Why did you ask for a VOTE? Because when i see these votes ..its just a invitation to discuss the topic.

Is there room for apology and remorse? Has soar even asked to offer any?

It is clearly a private site, members only and your call.

Dennis
User avatar
By sg
#367428
I put the vote up as input into my decision making. It does not stand alone.


I feel too out of touch to make a decision completely on my own and wanted to see what the community thought before I moved forward.

There has been no offer of apology as far as I know.
By Fletcher
#367429
SG
I'm confident that a great majority of the users of this site are grateful for the hard work you've put into creating and maintaining it.
Your asking for a vote on this topic only proves that you want a fair and reasonable
solution to this type of problem.
I think giving the users some time to decide if and how to vote is good.
Also it gives the offending party time to consider what was done and if an apology will be given.
My belief is that anyone who wrote what we saw here is not apt to apologize, but we'll see.
Thanks again for creating this site
Fletcher
User avatar
By knumbknuts
#367430
On the off chance it turns off a potential pilot, stand off and nuke the racist asshole from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
User avatar
By Nicos
#367432
It's possible soar won't do it again... I hope. Maybe a ban if he/she is aware of the issue and does it again? I didn't vote.
User avatar
By W9GFO
#367434
I abhor banning. In this case I think it is warranted, for a period of time. There are other places to "discuss" such political views.

I confess to not knowing what the rules are for this site but I expect that what he did was in violation. If not then I would recommend changing the rules to disallow hate speech and political rants.

I voted 'yes' because of his "swinging from trees" post. After seeing the subsequent posts, I should have voted 'strong yes'.

But then there is the "Golden Rule" that we all know. If I were banned for some reason I hope that it would not be permanent but for a period of time. After say three months, if he requests to be allowed back, he should be given another chance.
User avatar
By red
#367435
W9GFO wrote:I confess to not knowing what the rules are for this site but I expect that what he did was in violation. If not then I would recommend changing the rules to disallow hate speech and political rants.
If I were banned for some reason I hope that it would not be permanent but for a period of time. After say three months, if he requests to be allowed back, he should be given another chance.
Campers,

It's the topmost link in the WIKI here:

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_ ... _Statement
User avatar
By Aldpal
#367438
Wow, way to open a can of worms. SG I am not placing a vote because I think you should do whatever YOU think is best for this (YOUR?) site. I believe that this site is an asset to current and future HG pilots and don't like to see things that may dissuade newbies or the general public from using it. Having mostly only having two "jobs" in my life, as a Marine, and as a City Firefighter/Paramedic, I have no problem with harsh words or opinions and personalities and disagreements with in an organization, but understand always keeping that "in-house". That does not always work with a forum open to the public. You can erase any evidence of this controversy, or let it stand and allow the numerous responses to show what a good lot the majority of the HG community is.

Soar8hours: What were you thinking (or smoking?)? Are you or do you consider your self a racist? I am pissed about your post, because I lean about as far to the right as one can on most issues, and don't like the fact that you make it easy for people I try to have reasonable debate with, to lump me in as a racist. Many of the issues or complaints you mentioned are reasonable or valid criticisms, but you just flushed all of your arguments down the toilet when you added the racist hate (even if it was intended as humor, which it certainly does not come across as). I don't know if you have chosen not to, or not been permitted to respond to this thread, but I would really like to see how this criticism is affecting or maybe changing any of your views. Your profile show you have posted 203 times since 2010, and I read through a few of your previous posts, and did not see much to be offended by. What gives after 5 years? Did you leave your connection open and some one else typed this to mess with you? That was a common prank at the firehouse if you left you email open, even to respond to a 911 call, the remaining crew would always finish typing your email for you and cc it to all the Chiefs. Were you just trying to take the pressure off SmokingJoe? Because you certainly have. Did your daughter just bring a modern day Sidney Poitier to dinner?
User avatar
By NMERider
#367439
Aldpal wrote:...Did your daughter just bring a modern day Sidney Poitier to dinner?
Maybe he wrote it during the 'heat of the night'? :lol:

Seriously, it looks like soar8hours wrote it himself however he plagiarized those racist rants out on the web in the public domain. He also did not launch into a personal attack on any member of this forum as far as I can see. But he sure crossed the 'pissing people off' line on this one.

There are formerly active members of this forum who did real damage to both the forum and to the sport by heaping insults and ridicule on nearly every other poster they came in contact with. They never cursed or used racist comments but did real damage before leaving either on their own or after being banned.

What I see as a positive in all of this brouhaha is that there is an open discussion by a large number of members about taking steps to make this a welcoming place where pilots can share knowledge and ask questions. We don't need to all love each other like Barney the Dinosaur but it helps if we're not inflicting irritation and frustration on each other.
By Comet
#367443
Awesome debate - racism vs censorship!

Ha ha, it has been said that soar8hours (Tommy Thompson) has more hang check time that most of us have total airtime! Do we deny ourselves the benefit of his decades of experience and wisdom?
I can envision an extreme future where the org is composed of nothing but politically correct Hang Ones.

Tommy, like many of us, was angry with good reason. It was a total lie that Obamacare was intended for the poor; it is totally to make sure Big Medicine gets paid. I live below federal poverty level and my healthcare costs have skyrocketed under Obama's reign because I was forced to buy insurance that also pays for every wino on the street. But thank goodness that Obama's hypocrisy may provoke enough backlash to keep Hillary from being elected. But please folks, no "c" or "b" words!
User avatar
By sg
#367444
I warned everyone about Obamacare. Complete sell out to insurance companies.
My premiums jumped about 70%.

But you know what? You can make all those arguments without being racist.
Its just completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the discussion/debate.
User avatar
By NMERider
#367446
Comet wrote:Awesome debate - racism vs censorship!....
No. The issue is hate speech and the chilling effect it has on active forum participation. Racism and censorship are not even issues here. Forum participation has declined dramatically over the past years and I personally know many of the pilots who have either exited or just avoid this place. These are more knowledgeable and interesting posters than I am and their absence combined with the abstinence of those who are reluctant to post in the first place has really deadened the environment.

Even before the proverbial other shoe dropped on Tommy, there had been too much personal harassment and bullying (yes, bullying) going on around here. There is no shortage of overinflated egos in this sport and along with that goes harassment or bullying of those who don't kowtow and kiss their Papal rings. I see this in LZs too. It's real and not virtual.

None of the ego thing has anything to do with Tommy but the thing in common is that it's putting a big chill on participation. The same of course goes for trolls and any other provocateurs.There is no need to be politically correct and I for one find PC both repulsive and phony. You don't even have to be nice. Just don't stifle others is all unless they are being a troll or it's just plain warranted.

Hate speech simply needs to be removed. It doesn't take long for the author to get the message if his posts disappear but sg is too busy with other things to play moderator or Den Mother. Peer pressure has not been used by the community and there are no guest moderators as other forums have.

Anyhow, I enjoy your posts and your sense of humor. I'd hate to see you leave. I don't use the ignore button on anyone. If I see a soar8hours post I just skip to something else. Sadly, it's far less work to ban somebody than it is to keep locking threads or deleting posts.

my 2p
User avatar
By piano_man
#367448
I vote for a stern warning. Just read some of his old posts, I don't really see a racist pattern here. Maybe he had a bad day, (like what Red said) whatever, but the President gets worse slurs slung at him on a daily basis, comes with the job, saw in an interview he gets death threats everyday. Yea, I know, doesn't mean one should be able to rant racism here. The dude spoke his mind even if out of line. Back to the subject.

IMO stern (final) warning; Racist remarks should not be posted here. Let's move on.

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