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User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#245801
fly,surf,&ski wrote: I have to agree with JB on this one. Ryan I'm surprised you even went the "private property" route knowing what you know about the tandem exemption.....
I've based that on the thought that things are 'tighter' now than they were then. If that is not true, and tandem program was being watched as closely then as it is now, then I would certainly have to rethink my stance...

But it is my feeling that 15+ years ago things were much looser.... I could very well be wrong on that... in which case, like I said, I would have to change my stance...
By blindrodie
#245802
I hate too burst anyone's bubble about the FAA but they are so busy dealing with Sport Pilot and Homeland Security that "we" would have to do something SUPER frikin heinous to get ANY attention.

OMG we are such a tiny blip on the radar (yes even now) that the "closer scrutiny by the FAA" comment is laughable.

And NO I'm not advocating ANYTHING. Just providing a little personal experience levity.
8)
User avatar
By peanuts
#245803
fly,surf,&ski wrote:I pay off some crocked official....)

definately correct spelling this time :lol: :lol:
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#245805
blindrodie wrote: OMG we are such a tiny blip on the radar (yes even now) that the "closer scrutiny by the FAA" comment is laughable.
Maybe in Kansas :wink:

Here in UT I can tell you with certainty that is not the case (anymore)...
By blindrodie
#245807
Don't worry, your one local guy will be busy soon and then you will just think you are being watched...

If someone were to take video to him as proof of a violation and demand action, well then maybe. Not gunna happen Ryan. 8)
User avatar
By flysurfski
#245811
peanuts wrote:
fly,surf,&ski wrote:I pay off some crocked official....)

definately correct spelling this time :lol: :lol:
Can you tell I've thought about it before. Me 160 and a 100-130 lb hot female boating around on my 11 meter pulse at a nice mellow coastal site in Baja California..... :drool:

The good thing about mexico is all the cronies want is money. Oh wait that sounds like the bay area (WOR) cronies too......... :rofl:
User avatar
By srskypuppy
#245814
srskypuppy wrote:I’m willing to forgive Mike and with certain conditions, give him a second chance.
You are just setting him up for permanent revocation, not forgiveness.
oose to HELP Mike)[/quote]


Mark,

You publicly posted a document sent to Mike in confidentiality. I have no problem with it one way or another, and after speaking with Mike just now, I know that he would like to see more transparency with USHPA. As you can see, I am on the committee that will respond to Mike’s request for re-instatement. I take this duty very seriously and will do my best to be objective and non-biased. My views here are my own and don’t represent any other committee members, Regional Directors, or the USHPA.

I haven’t’ seen anyone say that Mike is a horrible person so nobody needs to be sticking up for him and saying what a great guy he is. This is not about how much you like or don’t like a person, it’s about how to mindfully re-integrate someone who made some serious errors in judgment.

I know this is a totally non-related analogy, but it’s what comes to mind right now: Imagine that you loaned a person some money and they spent that money and didn’t pay you back when they said they would. Then they came to you, apologized, and wanted to borrow some more money. Might you not have some trust issues? Might you consider loaning only half of what they asked for to see if they could be trusted again? And if you did loan them more money and they spent it and didn’t pay you back on time, would you ever loan them money again?

Mike violated some important site rules and national regulations. This as a situation where a person has violated our trust and we are going to consider re-trusting him with important responsibilities that could negatively affect many others. I don’t think it’s out of the question to let him get back one step at a time. And as I have said before, I support Mike getting his ratings back. He knows that a lot of people will be watching and I’m certain that from now on he will cross every “t” and dot every “i”. As long as he does that nobody will have an issue and he can have a long and fruitful career.

Many people are justifiably concerned that Mike might accidently break some insignificant rule and be hanged for it. I for one would stand against that kind of action. I can see a distinction between an intentional violation and an un-intentional or accidental violation. Take for instance a pilot coming in to land at 7:05 PM when they know site regulations require the landing zone be vacated by 7:00 PM. What if they had actually timed their flight well but there was a gust front blowing through the LZ when they were going to land and they decided to stay up and wait it out? Yes, they are still personally responsible for violating a site regulation but it was for safety reasons. They might get a warning or a short suspension, but I certainly wouldn’t pull their rating for that. Now if they did that very same thing over and over again, well that is a different story.

As opposed to a situation where a Tandem Instructor knowingly and intentionally takes a student for a tandem flight without filling out the 30 day membership form that provides us a waiver and insurance. There is no valid excuse for this, and after having had their rating revoked for the same violation once before, yes, in this case I would support a permanent revocation.

I think Mike is smart enough to not repeat past mistakes, and that at this point he is a reasonable risk.
User avatar
By woodysr2
#245819
Steve your analogy in my opinion does not hold water and if you are actually serious about warning or suspending a pilot for being safe you should really think about hanging up your robes of power.
If I were cought in a gust front or similar and landed 5 minutes after 7 and you came up to warn/suspend me I must be honest and tell you that the suspension would not be for the 5 minute violation but for you or any other sane person to even think about a warning for such a thing just brings your organisation into disrepute and makes you a laughing stock.
I realise things different this side of the pond ie signing of waivers (means didley squat over here) as you cannot sign away your rights in the uk. I do not know Mike but everyone here seems to think he is a very competent instructor and if this is his livelyhood and you have stripped him of it. I would be seeking legal action and if it was proved you had acted out of proportion to the act and that it could be proven that similar acts had been commited and gone unpunished then I would be looking to recoup for lost earnings and for damaging my name /reputation
just my 2 cents worth
User avatar
By SeeMarkFly
#245825
srskypuppy wrote:Mark,

You publicly posted a document sent to Mike in confidentiality.
I publicly posted a document I found on-line (not here).
srskypuppy wrote:I think Mike is smart enough to not repeat past mistakes, and that at this point he is a reasonable risk.
I see that Mike is smart enough to just go for a new rating instead of putting up with this s#!t.
User avatar
By srskypuppy
#245826
woodysr2 wrote:Steve your analogy in my opinion does not hold water and if you are actually serious about warning or suspending a pilot for being safe you should really think about hanging up your robes of power.
Geeze, take it easy, I was just inventing an imaginary scenario as an example of where different reactions would be appropriate for different situations. Every situation is different and I'm open to many alternatives.

And please don't mantle me with the "robes of power". I'm not the omnipotent ruler of all I behold. I volunteer to serve on our club committees and boards where there are any number of people who vote on a decision.

Of course I wouldn't want to suspend anyone for being caught in a gust front or involved in some other "Act of God", but you have no idea of what we have to go through to appease the lawyers and law enforcement officials who council the Parks and Counties.

I know of a pilot who was suspended for a week to show the parks dept that the club was being responsible and taking some kind of action on an incident the pilot was involved in. The pilot could fly many other sites and didn't care if he missed a few days at this particular one if it got the real powers that be off the clubs back. Because of his involvement, he gladly accepted the role of the sacrificial lamb so to speak. I know it sounds like a BS game but it works to keep them from clamping down on us in a way that would really cut into our flying.

The U.S. is plagued with paranoid lawyers and I envy you and others who fly in other countries. I spent two months flying around Australia and the ease of land access was wonderful!

There is always more to the story than what one can see on the surface and I wish folks would ask more questions before reacting.

Good thing you are not a member of USHPA or I would have the Powers That Be revoke your rating! ;-)
Last edited by srskypuppy on Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By srskypuppy
#245829
SeeMarkFly wrote:
srskypuppy wrote:Mark,

You publicly posted a document sent to Mike in confidentiality.
I publicly posted a document I found on-line (not here).
srskypuppy wrote:I think Mike is smart enough to not repeat past mistakes, and that at this point he is a reasonable risk.
I see that Mike is smart enough to just go for a new rating instead of putting up with this s#!t.
Mark, Thanks for the clarification. Mike does not know you and didn't know how you got the document either.
User avatar
By kukailimoku
#245830
Any of the old farts who were around for (and up to their crossbars in) the waiver/participant insurance debacles will remember where these things can lead.

Y'all be careful out there (and don't swap flying stories with lawyers...if their lips are moving, their meter is running).
User avatar
By SeeMarkFly
#245831
srskypuppy wrote:Mike does not know you and didn't know how you got the document either.
Yea, I know a lot of useless stuff.
User avatar
By FPeel
#245864
srskypuppy wrote:I know of a pilot who was suspended for a week to show the parks dept that the club was being responsible and taking some kind of action on an incident the pilot was involved in. The pilot could fly many other sites and didn't care if he missed a few days at this particular one if it got the real powers that be off the clubs back. Because of his involvement, he gladly accepted the role of the sacrificial lamb so to speak. I know it sounds like a BS game but it works to keep them from clamping down on us in a way that would really cut into our flying.
That was very big of the pilot in the example to take one for the team. Not everyone is as magnanimous yet around here they may find themselves forced into that position against their desires. Like the pilot who got suspended because a committee member had a bone to pick with him when the real infraction was by a favored child. I was in that kangaroo court as a witness and it was a complete joke. Or other pilots getting off Scot free for egregious activities purely because a "good ol' boy" or two stood up for them or was a friend of theirs. Been witness to quite a number of these, too. Who you are, who you know and whose butt is getting smooched come into play far too often.

No one forces the reins of power into anyone's hands. They're taken by choice and they demand to be held LIGHTLY. Sadly, that isn't what happens. Anyone who doesn't see it either isn't watching or they're too close to the problem.
User avatar
By srskypuppy
#245865
FPeel wrote:
srskypuppy wrote:I know of a pilot who was suspended for a week to show the parks dept that the club was being responsible and taking some kind of action on an incident the pilot was involved in. The pilot could fly many other sites and didn't care if he missed a few days at this particular one if it got the real powers that be off the clubs back. Because of his involvement, he gladly accepted the role of the sacrificial lamb so to speak. I know it sounds like a BS game but it works to keep them from clamping down on us in a way that would really cut into our flying.
That was very big of the pilot in the example to take one for the team. Not everyone is as magnanimous yet around here they may find themselves forced into that position against their desires. Like the pilot who got suspended because a committee member had a bone to pick with him when the real infraction was by a favored child. I was in that kangaroo court as a witness and it was a complete joke. Or other pilots getting off Scot free for egregious activities purely because a "good ol' boy" or two stood up for them or was a friend of theirs. Been witness to quite a number of these, too. Who you are, who you know and whose butt is getting smooched come into play far too often.

No one forces the reins of power into anyone's hands. They're taken by choice and they demand to be held LIGHTLY. Sadly, that isn't what happens. Anyone who doesn't see it either isn't watching or they're too close to the problem.
Sad to say, but what you have pointed out appears in every strata of human existence. It is an unfortunate aspect of our DNA, probably something having to do with tribal survival. It's one of the reasons we have gangs and so much warfare.

I think our best strategy against primitive behavior is to elect officials and executives we know and trust. I'm pretty disgusted with the moral downfall of so many politicians that I have much skepticism about this tact, but what else can we do but our best? That and hold their feet to the fire when someone betrays our trust.
User avatar
By hgflyer
#245874
In the Bay area of BA (bare ass) or BS (bull shiatzu) politics. If I had to choose between the lessor of two evils (Pat vs. Mike)? Hands down I would side with Mike! Granted he makes adjustments to improve his approach to teaching.

I know Instructors can be know it alls...But Pat takes the cake when it comes to acting like he knows it ALL............................................................................................................................................................................I made a few extra dots for Davis Straub.
User avatar
By FPeel
#245875
srskypuppy wrote:Sad to say, but what you have pointed out appears in every strata of human existence. It is an unfortunate aspect of our DNA, probably something having to do with tribal survival. It's one of the reasons we have gangs and so much warfare.
As indicated by your examples it is the weaker willed man who falls prey to the base instinct of preying on others in order to elevate himself. The better men I know are honest, honorable people whose basic nature flies in the face of your assertion. Others struggle with those demons, yet still find a way to mostly do the right thing. The rest? There's a special place in Hell for them.
I think our best strategy against primitive behavior is to elect officials and executives we know and trust. I'm pretty disgusted with the moral downfall of so many politicians that I have much skepticism about this tact, but what else can we do but our best? That and hold their feet to the fire when someone betrays our trust.
That doesn't work so well. In the hang gliding community, as in the political world, many of those who choose to be in charge shouldn't because they can't control the urges you outlined. That makes them akin to the gang bangers and crooked politicians, all of whom believe there is nothing wrong with what they're doing, so they easily find ways to rationalize their actions. And, over time, end up doing more of the same. Or worse.

Retribution is hard because these are the personae who are quickest to whine about how they're being under appreciated, mistreated or abused. Sadly, the system has been twisted so that it supports them rather than root them out.

Admittedly a bit of an extreme comparison, but they're your examples and since it's the same motivation being discussed it'll do.

Personally, I stay as far from the club nonsense as is reasonable because spinning in place trying to look busy and important is a waste of energy. On the rare occasion an issue arises I find a way to deal with it myself. Involving the "authorities" just makes things messy and nothing of any true value ever gets resolved.

Closure is good.
User avatar
By hgflyer
#245877
hgflyer wrote:In the Bay area of BA (bare ass) or BS (bull shiatzu) politics. If I had to choose between the lessor of two evils (Pat vs. Mike)? Hands down I would side with Mike! Granted he makes adjustments to improve his approach to teaching.

I know Instructors can be know it alls...But Pat takes the cake when it comes to acting like he knows it ALL............................................................................................................................................................................I made a few extra dots for Davis Straub.
I want to say on record that this is not a personal vendetta against Pat. For the last 20 or so years...I've had the pleasure to sit back and observe. As much as Pat says he grows the sport. He'll also tell a pilot who has spent thousands on equipment and lessons through his school (largest shop on the west coast). That they don't have the right stufff...After the community (clubs, other flying site locals, observers, other instructors or family members) tells a former student of Mission Sore center. Your gonna kill yourself...You need to talk to the owner of the school who taught you!

The path of least resistance is the path of an experienced HG school owner!
User avatar
By hgflyer
#245879
I made a HUGE mistake in my last post. I mentioned path of least resistance.




WITHOUT MENTIONING THE PATH OF MOST PROFIT!
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