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User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#245664
Bubbles is referring to posts/PM from several years ago... but I'm happy to summarize (and I'm sure he will correct me).

In a public post I said that Malcolm forgot to send in tandem paperwork to USHPA. I do know that is not exactly the truth, but I saw no reason to bring Maclom down in the eyes of all the new pilots that don't know the drama of the past. Call it believing in second chances...

Bubs PM'd me and I told him I know it wasn't really a case of "forgetting", and explained my reasoning (described above).

He then went into a whole bit about cronyism and how my dad single handedly swayed a whole room of RD's into NOT pulling Malcom's tandem rating... to this I have no information, as I wasn't there... those that know my dad, know he is not a 'corrupt politician' (no matter what you think of USHPA as a whole)...

Then, since Bubbs obviously DOESN'T believe in second chances and not dragging someone through the dirt for mistakes made long ago.... I brought up the fact that he accidentally was responsible for a fatal hang gliding accident, and then covered it up for over a year, before bringing it up all over again to ease his conscience....

Point is- he should know as well as anyone that people do dumb things, and they change. Since Malcolm is now sending in his paperwork... why make him look bad over something 15+ years ago?
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#245666
Jason wrote:this may all be true....but Gotandem does not frequent here (or at least does not post frequently), so he may not have seen it before
A: and as just noted, he only need hang around for a bit more to see Ryan do his usual thing.

B: I'd bet some bucks that Bart has commented previously on this *very* Malcolm topic when Ryan and I were going at it a while back as that is my recollection.

Jason - perhaps you aren't familiar with who Bart is and his knowledge of the events. This is not some guy 'new to the issue' who is wondering what's up, this is a guy intimately and personally familiar with the Malcom situation making excuses (such as "it was a long time ago) for Ryan's here and now hypocrisy

JB
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#245667
Ryan, did Malcom come clean of his own accord and make a public apology for his 'stupid thing'?

No -- a thousand times NO.

Comparing an contrite person with a defiant person doesn't fly no matter how you try.

JB
User avatar
By FPeel
#245669
To answer the question, nothing has changed about hang gliding politics in the Bay Area. All the -isms still apply (crony, favorite, etc.) a much as ever before.

Contrary to comments others made in this thread the same kangaroo courts are held to punish the less connected, those who are disliked or simply don't toe the line closely enough. All the while, certain others continue to abuse the system as always, doing more damage than all the "offenders" combined.

Get involved? Been there, done that. Finally got disgusted enough with the little Napoleons who inevitably involve themselves with such things and disconnected from it; am happier now for having done so. Still, from time to time something does get caught in my craw...
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#245671
AIRTHUG wrote: Since Malcolm is now sending in his paperwork... why make him look bad over something 15+ years ago?
The Malcom issue itself isn't really on my mind -- it's YOUR sermon regarding how important tandem paperwork is and how you support punishment for infractions, all the while still holding that it was fine to allow Malcolm to get away with it with NO punishment because "he did a lot for the sport" (your words).

Your hypocrisy is blatent and it's a shame (but rather typical) that you are in a position to exercise it regularly in the USHPA.

JB
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#245672
gotandem wrote:I can't find it...
You will if you want to (but then I'm pretty sure you don't want to).

JB
User avatar
By gotandem
#245676
Right.
I don't care to if you can't help me find where Ryan currently defends the BOD decision. So far I think it's a false accusation. There are a lot of these on the ORG and on Ozreport. Again: I don't really care.
What I do care about is the fact that ever since Sport Pilot, Light Aviation has been under scrutiny from the FAA. Because of our self regulation (which was not perfect in the past and is obviously still not) our status has not changed. But the FAA is watching us closer now than 15 years ago. Maybe this has something to do with the revocation?
I hope he'll be back teaching soon.
Bart
User avatar
By srskypuppy
#245677
It’s not about being righteous, perfect or absolute. I’d guess that everyone here has broken some rule at one point or another and I think some rules can be broken without having tangible negative effect on anyone.**
For instance, I drive over the speed limit on FWY-280 and I don’t care if anyone else speeds as long as they are in control. I know I’m breaking the law so if I get a speeding ticket I don’t complain, I just pay my fine and deal with it. And if through my conscious violation of the law I lose my license, I won’t blame the cop or the judge.

**(One might argue that by speeding I use more gas, contribute to global warming and hasten the end of civilization, but I’d like to not get to that level of minutiae)

In contrast, I am very careful to obey the speed limit or drive even slower when passing a school or playground because I don’t want to run over a child, and I get really pissed off when I see some knucklehead blasting through a crosswalk just because they don’t see any kids around. I think these A-holes should have their drivers license pulled and wish there were more cops around when we need them!

I think we can draw some parallels to hang gliding, where some rules can be ignored but others can’t.

For instance, I’m sure we all agree that teaching students safely and getting them into hang gliding is a good thing. But not everyone has their private training facility and these instructors need to use another venue, which is oftentimes public. This is where there are some rules, IMHO, that for the good of the sport, can be overlooked, equally for everyone, because they support training and flying and yet don’t put anyone or the site in jeopardy.
Some sites, and for the sake of their preservation should remain nameless (Hint to everyone), have been used for training for decades without issue because everyone keeps a relatively low profile and follows the rules that keep people safe.

On the other hand, there are some rules that can’t be overlooked, for anyone, because they absolutely do jeopardize the flying site.

For example, rules that prohibit launching a student from a site that they are not qualified to fly from, or teaching someone without having them sign a waiver first, these are the kind of violations can get a site shut down. So when someone comes in and violates rules like these, they need to be reigned in to protect the flying site.

So while all this makes sense to me, it DOES make it hard to not look hypocritical when we condemn a person for breaking one rule while we don’t enforce a different rule.

My belief is that while we don’t absolutely have to enforce every rule, what rules we do enforce need to be applied equally to everyone.
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#245678
to summarize:
There was no attempt to deploy the parachute in spite of the high altitude of the glider.

A review of the wreckage by John Borton...
Much later JB said:
This is what happened…Michael trusted me to pull the rocket safety pin before he launched and I failed him. I then covered this fact up during the following investigation.
An honest and understandable mistake.... followed by the unthinkable. And this man comes here and lectures us on cronyism, conspiracy and cover-ups?

I'm sure, at the time, he was absolutely able to justify that action through logic- as he prides himself in being highly logical. something like "my friend is already dead, it does not bring him back to know I forgot the pin, so I'm not hurting anyone by pocketing the pin now. Actually, there's no reason I should go down for this anyway, it was his mistake that broke the glider!"

Please do not lecture me on morals, Mr Borton. Thanks :thumbsup:
Last edited by AIRTHUG on Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#245681
gotandem wrote:JB, Why do you keep bringing up old s***?
:ditto:

Malcolm not sending paperwork in 15+ years ago seems hardly relevant to someone who recently and consciously didn't do any paperwork at all. Times have changed, we're under more scrutiny than ever...

And most of the BOD has turned over since then, so you're citing a past decision to which you did not agree with, made by people no longer in play. The current decision seems to be what you had wanted then....

perhaps people really do learn from mistakes in the past, and correct them moving forward? Then there are the people that have trouble letting go of the past...
Last edited by AIRTHUG on Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#245682
srskypuppy wrote:Some sites, and for the sake of their preservation should remain nameless (Hint to everyone), have been used for training for decades without issue because everyone keeps a relatively low profile and follows the rules that keep people safe.
Ok, so you have a situation where an important flying site could be lost merely because of a procedural issue (money changing hands) but you hide and in effect defend that because the people doing it are doing it safely.
On the other hand, there are some rules that can’t be overlooked, for anyone, because they absolutely do jeopardize the flying site.

For example, rules that prohibit launching a student from a site that they are not qualified to fly from, or teaching someone without having them sign a waiver first, these are the kind of violations can get a site shut down.
Then you go on to pick another procedural issue that can get a site shut down (no waiver signed) and claim that *this rule can't be overlooked and must be punished if violated*.

I present that the two examples you present don't just *look* like uneven inforcement -- it IS uneven enforcement. Both are procedural points that have NOTHING to do with safety but can get the site shut down pronto.

Steve, you might well be able to find examples of rules that fall into disparate catagories regarding 'overlook' or 'not overlook', but the one you picked don't demonstrate what you hoped they would and in fact give people the impression that it's not logic and reason going into which rules are overlooked and which infractions are punished.

JB
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#245683
AIRTHUG wrote:Malcolm not sending paperwork in 15+ years ago seems hardly relevant to someone who recently and consciously didn't do any paperwork at all.
First off -- Malcom didn't do the paperwork either and you know this. It's not like he bought the temp membership forms, had the student fill them out and then just didn't send them in. Your attempt to make it look like there is a difference between the infractions is telling.

The only difference in Malcolm not paying the USHGA for the memberships and having the students fill them out and then return them and Mike not doing it is that Malcolm did it thousands of times over years while being 'warned' not to do it and then was given no punishment (something you defend).

And as to relevence, it was YOU Ryan who established the relevence of the Malcolm case when you posted your little hypocritical sermon.

This isn't about Malcolm -- it's about YOU. Stop trying to change the focus.

JB
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#245685
AIRTHUG wrote:Please do not lecture me on morals, Mr Borton. Thanks :thumbsup:
Yes Ryan -- you have no concept of the morality of seeing the error of one's ways and apologizing publicly.

That's a big reach for you to understand isn't it.

JB
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#245686
We can nit pick this all day- but there are absolutely some rules that are HARD rules, and some we view as soft rules.

It is illegal to fly in clouds... but I know people do it anyway (knowing it's illegal)

It is illegal to fly after sunset... but I know people do it anyway (knowing it's illegal)

The list goes on and on.... Unfortunately, things like this aren't a problem, until they are...

For example, we had a near-miss last year at Point of the Mountain. A military helicopter was flying (using night vision goggles) and had to do an emergency course correction because of someone flying after legal sunset on the North Side POM. Now we know that we're 'on the radar' and being watched, by both the FAA, but honestly more importantly by the Parks people (North Side is a Salt Lake County park).

People have probably been violating this rule for 30 yrs, without issue. Until it WAS an issue.... and we almost lost a site over it.

Since one of USHPA's biggest priorities is SITE PRESERVATION, it seems totally appropriate that they should be proactive regarding potential threats to our precious sites, rather than only being reactive when it becomes an issue.

I don't see anyone arguing the contrary, so what exactly are we debating again?
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#245687
gotandem wrote:JB, Why do you keep bringing up old s***?
I'm not bringing up old s--- -- I'm bringing up *current* s***.

Ryan currently defends punishing one person for an infraction while currently holding a no-punishment stance for someone else whose infraction was THOUSANDS of times greater.

That's here, that's now, that's current.

Once again you are trying to make the focus Malcom while my focus is Ryan.

Do as you like.

JB
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#245688
BubbleBoy wrote:
AIRTHUG wrote:Please do not lecture me on morals, Mr Borton. Thanks :thumbsup:
Yes Ryan -- you have no concept of the morality of seeing the error of one's ways and apologizing publicly.
Your public apology wasn't for anyone but yourself, so you could sleep better at night. All that did is bring up the pain of losing a friend or loved one all over again- as if it had just happened. I fully believe in confessions and doing the right thing...

But after years had passed, you had created a situation where it would have been better for everyone for you to deal with your guilt and not bring suffering to others...

Do not make your 'public apology' out to be some saving grace- it was as selfish as the day you pocketed that pin.
User avatar
By Wes
#245690
Isnt all of this another topic or is it just me? Seems pretty personal too. Maybe better discussed in private?
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