This forum is dedicated to discussions on how to grow the sport of hang gliding. We will take a methodical approach to collect data and come up with implementable ideas on how to increase our numbers. This includes effective marketing, lead generation, site access issues, improving regulations, lack of instructors, lack of sites, etc

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By miguel
#30569
Sorry for the late reply.

I am the person who wrote the original post.

Maverick Training.

This is Speedie's opinion. (no offense intended)

I would call it community training. Maybe you could even apply the dreaded "S" word as a description.

Although, there is one person spearheading this operation, there are others who help and observe. I personally have not been to the training hill but have heard reports from individuals that I know and trust.

The would-be pilots start at the bottom of the hill and work their way up it. They do not go higher up the hill until they demonstrate that they are in control at the lower level. The hill is grassy, less than 100 ft., and faces into the wind. They also carry their own gliders up the hill.

Once they master the training hill, they are observed by a pilot with a observer rating. If the observer is satisfied with the pilot's skills, they are allowed to fly the main hill in mellow conditions under the supervision of the observer. Once the observer is satisfied, they can fly under the supervision of a club key holder. All club members are encouraged to mentor and interact with the new pilots.

The observer also issues ratings.

I will say again that internet tricks are not going to grow the sport.
By miguel
#30601
sg wrote:
miguel wrote:
I will say again that internet tricks are not going to grow the sport.
No tricks. Advertising is core to growing anything.
Nope.......... advertising, especially internet advertising is only an adjunct to growing the sport.

At most sites, wuffos are treated with a kind of understated contempt. Pilots politely tolerate them but interact with them as little as possible. I have personally seen this at a number of sites. If I show up at a site without a glider or my rig, I am given a very chilly reception unless I identify myself as a pilot.

Making the wuffos welcome and chatting them up while answering their 'dumb' questions would generate a more knowledgeable and more likely to stick recruit than watching a quick ad off the firehose of the internet.
User avatar
By fly n mater
#30608
Got into with dweebis over on the yahoo group about advertising. He only wanted to do what has already been done, but jazz it up a bit.

I tried to tell him that the old system of doing it don't work. But he wouldn't buy it. I then asked him what does he want to do and he couldn't say. so I asked, post ads on the bullitin boards at launch and the lz, word of mouth, stickers on the car window? I pointed out that all those things don't work.

I tried to tell him that sexy, exciting ads featuring good times is what is needed. Of course it fell on his granite ears and never soaked into his one celled brain, it was cold that day. so it kinda just hid in the murky water. :rofl:

What is needed is a series of ads focusing on aspects of hg. One series for good times, one for safety improvements, one for the excitement of the sport and on.

Until the powers that be realize that, its only so much smoke in the wind, so to speak.


Mater
User avatar
By Mrsposer
#30647
Luckily, our family has been treated very nicely by everyone at LMFP. Every pilot we have met has been very helpful and all are extremely nice. I feel very fortunate that we have met and (hopefully) became friends with them all. It is a very welcoming environment and we just love the atmosphere and all of you guys and gals. You are all a great group of people!
By joshuajneufeld
#409752
:ditto:

miguel wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:51 pm
sg wrote:
miguel wrote:
I will say again that internet tricks are not going to grow the sport.
No tricks. Advertising is core to growing anything.
Nope.......... advertising, especially internet advertising is only an adjunct to growing the sport.

At most sites, wuffos are treated with a kind of understated contempt. Pilots politely tolerate them but interact with them as little as possible. I have personally seen this at a number of sites. If I show up at a site without a glider or my rig, I am given a very chilly reception unless I identify myself as a pilot.

Making the wuffos welcome and chatting them up while answering their 'dumb' questions would generate a more knowledgeable and more likely to stick recruit than watching a quick ad off the firehose of the internet.
#409754
>>Making the wuffos welcome and chatting them up while answering their 'dumb' questions
Hahaha! At Ft. Funston, Spectator:"Can I rent this handglider?" Flyer:"Sure, 25 bucks gets you an hour!", hands over the keys to his T3, spends his new $$ on beer.

The sport would grow like wildfire!
#411613
Ok I just saw the title of this forum and just wanted to chime in because I have something’s to say haha
Ok I have been Pursuing on getting my instructor rating for a couple years and know other pilots that have been trying for a lease 5 years. It’s like hang gliding will and ushpa will let it. The lack of (qualified) people able to appoint instructors. And those (qualified) individuals are usually instructors themselves and usually are not very willing to have a new school to take clients from them so in turn basically string along will and actually qualified individuals and really make them a client instead.not only that Han gliding instructors have to pay the same insurance as a pg instructor.and we all know that 1 pg instructors have way more students hands down and 2 hang gliders have way less injuries yes less students =less injuries but when it comes Down to flights to injuries pgs have way more injuries so I think for hg instructor to survive they should have different cost for the ushpa owned insurance because I mean in the name ushpa hang gliding comes first they should change it to United States paragliding association oh and hang gliding or (uspaah) but sorry if you read this I just wanted to put ghat into the universe
#411614
Bodoone wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:53 pm Ok I just saw the title of this forum and just wanted to chime in because I have something’s to say haha
Ok I have been Pursuing on getting my instructor rating for a couple years and know other pilots that have been trying for a lease 5 years. It’s like hang gliding will and ushpa will let it.

As someone who's been flying for quite awhile, but only became an official instructor a few years back, I understand your irritation.
There seems to be a number of people who have acquired the ability to give instructor appointments who don't have any desire to do so. In my case, a number of us got together to fly Paul Voight out from New York to Southern California because none of the local Instructor Administrators could be bothered to put on an instruction seminar.
USHPA or RRRG, I disremember which, very kindly told us that we could NOT have the instruction seminar at Andy Jackson without paying for additional insurance. Presumably that would be to cover the increased risk from a number of experienced pilots sitting around talking about flying hang gliders and teaching how to fly hang gliders. [/quote]
Bodoone wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:53 pmThe lack of (qualified) people able to appoint instructors. And those (qualified) individuals are usually instructors themselves and usually are not very willing to have a new school to take clients from them so in turn basically string along will and actually qualified individuals and really make them a client instead.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'client.' But I agree it would seem to be sort of a conflict of interest for a school owner to only create instructors for their own school. Paul, on the other hand, did take the time to fly across the country.

I don't think having a 'use it or lose it' rule for Instructor Administrators would necessarily be a way to fix it. On the one hand, having to have an open instruction seminar from time to time would be a big help for those who were seeking to expand the sport by part time instruction rather than just employment. On the other hand, one less person to grant instructor appointments is one less person to grant instructor appointments.

Similarly, I'm not sure why having instructor appointments expire after two years is a good thing. You already have to pay for Lilienthal membership and turn in a first aid certificate every two years. Teaching is really not a muscle memory sort of skill, and there's already a mechanism in place to pull the appointments of unsafe instructors. So other than the fifteen dollar processing fee, I don't see much of a benefit to the organization.
Bodoone wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:53 pm not only that Han gliding instructors have to pay the same insurance as a pg instructor.and we all know that 1 pg instructors have way more students hands down and 2 hang gliders have way less injuries yes less students =less injuries but when it comes Down to flights to injuries pgs have way morehe event, we had it at injuries so I think for hg instructor to survive they should have different cost for the ushpa owned insurance because I mean in the name ushpa hang gliding comes first they should change it to United States paragliding association oh and hang gliding or (uspaah) but sorry if you read this I just wanted to put ghat into the universe
Meh. I don't have a problem with HG and PG paying the same for insurance. I don't have data either way, although that in itself is a gripe for another time.

Now that all hang gliders aren't the same, the instruction is going to have to be paid for somehow.
Somebody's got to pay for the wear and tear on the training gliders and harnesses. But it seems to me there are a lot of barriers put up for the part-time instructor who merely wants to perpetuate the sport, and isn't necessarily looking to make profits.
#411615
TjW,

I agree, mostly. When everybody was teaching each other, the sport of HG grew by leaps and bounds. Now it seems the USA national club seems to be willing to let the sport die. Not everybody, of course, but too many of the ones who want to run things.

Maybe it's time for a return to our roots. As a community, we pretty much know what works. We also know what does not work. We have seen both, make no mistake.

Do I see a future in our sport? Well, YES. HG as a sport needs to be what it once was, a grass-roots movement of people determined to fly. Independence in an American tradition, and it's a mistake to lose that ideal.

For the immediate future, I see a lack of vertical terrain as a serious obstacle to our growth. Even living in the morning-shadows of the Rockies, I have spent a lot of time driving to the good launches. Sometimes, the bravest souls in the party are the drivers who take the truck back to flat ground.

I see two answers for that large terrain issue, nationwide. One is towing up with a pay-out winch. There can be no less expensive airtime available to us, for personal aviation. The other answer is power, similar to what is seen in the link below, but cleaned up using electric power, solid-state batteries (NOT lithium), and the "tailwheel trike" designs seen in the videos.
https://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic ... 92#p411565
#411617
TjW wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:36 pm
Bodoone wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:53 pm Ok I just saw the title of this forum and just wanted to chime in because I have something’s to say haha
Ok I have been Pursuing on getting my instructor rating for a couple years and know other pilots that have been trying for a lease 5 years. It’s like hang gliding will and ushpa will let it.

As someone who's been flying for quite awhile, but only became an official instructor a few years back, I understand your irritation.
There seems to be a number of people who have acquired the ability to give instructor appointments who don't have any desire to do so. In my case, a number of us got together to fly Paul Voight out from New York to Southern California because none of the local Instructor Administrators could be bothered to put on an instruction seminar.
USHPA or RRRG, I disremember which, very kindly told us that we could NOT have the instruction seminar at Andy Jackson without paying for additional insurance. Presumably that would be to cover the increased risk from a number of experienced pilots sitting around talking about flying hang gliders and teaching how to fly hang gliders.
Bodoone wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:53 pmThe lack of (qualified) people able to appoint instructors. And those (qualified) individuals are usually instructors themselves and usually are not very willing to have a new school to take clients from them so in turn basically string along will and actually qualified individuals and really make them a client instead.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'client.' But I agree it would seem to be sort of a conflict of interest for a school owner to only create instructors for their own school. Paul, on the other hand, did take the time to fly across the country.

I don't think having a 'use it or lose it' rule for Instructor Administrators would necessarily be a way to fix it. On the one hand, having to have an open instruction seminar from time to time would be a big help for those who were seeking to expand the sport by part time instruction rather than just employment. On the other hand, one less person to grant instructor appointments is one less person to grant instructor appointments.

Similarly, I'm not sure why having instructor appointments expire after two years is a good thing. You already have to pay for Lilienthal membership and turn in a first aid certificate every two years. Teaching is really not a muscle memory sort of skill, and there's already a mechanism in place to pull the appointments of unsafe instructors. So other than the fifteen dollar processing fee, I don't see much of a benefit to the organization.
Bodoone wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:53 pm not only that Han gliding instructors have to pay the same insurance as a pg instructor.and we all know that 1 pg instructors have way more students hands down and 2 hang gliders have way less injuries yes less students =less injuries but when it comes Down to flights to injuries pgs have way morehe event, we had it at injuries so I think for hg instructor to survive they should have different cost for the ushpa owned insurance because I mean in the name ushpa hang gliding comes first they should change it to United States paragliding association oh and hang gliding or (uspaah) but sorry if you read this I just wanted to put ghat into the universe
Meh. I don't have a problem with HG and PG paying the same for insurance. I don't have data either way, although that in itself is a gripe for another time.

Now that all hang gliders aren't the same, the instruction is going to have to be paid for somehow.
Somebody's got to pay for the wear and tear on the training gliders and harnesses. But it seems to me there are a lot of barriers put up for the part-time instructor who merely wants to perpetuate the sport, and isn't necessarily looking to make profits.
[/quote]

So I have been climbing instructor/guide and the requirements to become a climbing guide is intense but it is very easy and dosnt take years just to get start the process. I got certified climbing guide in less than 6 months I understand it’s two different activity’s and need different skills and knowledge but all certifications are mainly for you to obtain insurance and see by ushpa creating a insurance to quote unquote save on cost has actually created a sort of monopoly ya you are not 100% obligated to go through ushpa to obtain insurance but you kind of are because without going with them you pretty much outcasted see I have talked with insurance companies that I used in the past for climbing and all have been willing to hang gliding but say paragliding would be to much of a liability for them to many claims from past ten years from that sport. So I was thinking if other insurance companies then how can ushpa not see that there is a significant liability difference issue and charge accordingly because what I have been quoted would be significantly cheaper and my coverage would be almost double what is offered through the organization. I mean after all the research and frustration I realized that the sport means to much to me and dont care to make a business anymore and just want to teach/get as many people into the sport as possible that I want to be a non commercial instructor I want to give lessons for free to anyone willing to try and there is literally only one administrator that is non commercial in all of ushpa i mean the first administrator I contacted was trying to charge me 1800 for the clinic but they told me they haven’t flown a hang glider in 20 years and don’t even own a hang glider I mean how is that possible this sport is like riding a bike you just can’t go hop in a wing after not flying for 20 years that is the #1 reasons for the deaths in this sport.but my final thought is maybe instead of only instructors being able to give h0-h2 and observes being able to to higher ratings maybe letting observers give h0-h1 then an instructor having to give those higher ratings just a thought
#411622
TjW wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:36 pm But it seems to me there are a lot of barriers put up for the part-time instructor who merely wants to perpetuate the sport, and isn't necessarily looking to make profits.
100% agree. IMHO the barriers are driven 100% by legal counsel. I let my instructor rating lapse because of the red tape. I still mentor new pilots, but cannot give ratings.

As Davis Straub is allegedly fond of paraphrasing TIp O'Neill "All hang gliding is local."

A seasoned Kitty Hawk Instructor pointed out to me at the last Hang Gliding Spectacular that a local hang gliding community is dependent on a three legged stool. A instructor/school bringing in new pilots, a community of seasoned pilots to nurture them, and sites to regularly fly.

If we want to grow the sport we need to focus on supporting three legged stools.
#411624
TomGalvin wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:42 pm
red wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:21 pm The other answer is power, similar to what is seen in the link below, but cleaned up using electric power, solid-state batteries (NOT lithium)
Don't equate the risks of lithium ion chemistry with lithium iron phosphate.
https: //youtu.be/UvzRfUGAB_s?t=109
Tom,

Actually, sure, Lithium batteries can be safe(r), but there are still issues with charging durations, manufacturing, recycling, and limited (exotic) resources. The new solid-state batteries charge much faster, and last longer. They are rebuildable(!) with hand tools. Materials are common and recyclable. Due to the usual environmentally-conscious aspects of our HG community, I would wish to avoid Lithium batteries, but YMMV.
#411625
A lot of the problem as I see it is the retention rate at various phases. If you just look at the retention from the Day 1 Lesson to Day 2 lesson the loss rate is incredible just looking at my own limited statistical analysis. Something like 1-2% of anyone who takes a hang gliding lesson even shows up to the second day.

The other huge loss point is Between the H2 and H3 ratings. In the short time I've been flying the common "keep" rate between the two ratings was like 9%. Fortunately through a lot of local work our 2020-2021 retention rate was like 44%.

This low rate of H2->H3 transition has HUGE implications in instruction because the basic instructor rating requires H3. Now if you're only keeping 0.1% of people who take a first day lesson you're going to run out of the basic material to make instructors real fast. The next urgently needed step is to reduce the administrative overhead to obtain a basic instructor rating so you can use these new instructors to force multiply against the 1st day ->2nd day loss rate.

Not only does the administrative overhead have to be reduced in making basic instructors, but you need instructor administrators that "evangalize" becoming an instructor instead of passively waiting for candidates, this isn't happening in any community in which I have flown.

In a previous life I was both a Training Non-Commissioned Officer and a Standards/Evaluation program leader in a military unit. As a training program leader I'd have people that showed up for first days of instruction identified, that I knew would probably make good instructors 3-4 years down the road. Once these people were identified they'd be subtly tracked towards the apprentice instructor pipeline, with extra training, mentoring etc. Nothing I have seen indicates this level of basic forethought in HG and it desperately needs it. If an instructor administrator isn't actively pitching to up and coming pilots the idea of becoming a basic instructor (which you need if you ever want advanced instructors) then they aren't doing their job.

Becoming a basic instructor who teaches without compensation still needs a legally tenable method to offset costs.

So TL:DR

If we're going to do community training you need:

1. Draw on a pool of recruits that don't quit after the first day/ change training up to keep more people (1st day ->2nd day retention)

2. Focus on getting people trained and promoted through the ranks all the way to h3 (h2->h3 retention)

3. Identifying people early who may have the talent and ability to pass on their knowledge to new people (The military does this through first assignment instructor pilots) (Finding basic instructor stock)

4. Reduce overhead on people wanting to be instructors, and put them on a clear track/ensure they are progressing (making new basic instructors)

5. Have instructor administrators that actively evangelize becoming basic instructors.

6. Find a way to offset costs for instructors not taking direct compensation.
#411626
All of those items are excellent points. The hang gliding community has too often not acted as one. Reducing the difficulties of getting into and staying in this sport is something that is often overlooked by a lot of pilots. In some areas it's much easier to progress because of better access to flying sites and more consistent flying conditions. It's not like that everywhere.
The common thing I have seen push too many instructors out over the years is the cost of being an instructor. Making a living at it is difficult and if it's in an area with a high cost of living it can be unsustainable. And not everyone can afford to do it as a side job. A common theme I have seen is students and potential students complaining about the cost of lessons. Those same people have no problem spending big bucks on other hobbies and sports, but for some reason they think it unreasonable to pay a fair price for learning to fly. Some of those same people when they do make it through the beginner stage are the ones who want to buy all the latest new gear to fly with no matter the cost. They need to be made aware that the instructor needs to eat, too, as well as pay for the equipment needed for that training. Changing their perspective by explaining and emphasizing the need and importance of proper, safe training is very necessary. Making the training clear and understandable for those with no kind of aviation background goes a long way to ensure that.
Another thing that should be made very clear is that not everyone can learn to fly. I have heard some instructors make the statement that they can teach anyone to fly. That's total B.S. Far too often those students end up taking lesson after lesson without ever making any real progress. A good instructor should not be afraid to explain why a student should give it up instead of just keep taking their money. It's better to lose a potential student who isn't going to succeed instead of leaving them feeling only resentment towards the sport when they finally do drop out on their own. Of course, it's even worse when they are encouraged to keep going when it's clear they shouldn't and they take themselves out of it with an injury or worse. Any student who gets injured is a black mark on the sport and we don't need any more of those.
Also, an instructor should never forget what it was like when they were a newbie. I have sometimes seen an instructor lose patience with a student when they get a little overwhelmed by so many things happening all at once. It’s that drinking from a fire hose thing. So much happening all at once and it can feel like you’ll never be able to handle it. Always remember that whenever you are learning something new, especially something complicated, it takes time to build up those habit patterns (what is often called muscle memory). When you’re new you have to consciously think about every step, one at a time as they happen, until those habit patterns become ingrained. It’s a simple thing, but it’s sometimes forgotten or overlooked.
A topic that sometimes comes up is the rude attitude that spectators (or even visiting pilots) have gotten from pilots at some flying sites. I’ve seen it myself, but it’s mostly died out over the years. We should never shy away from answering questions or at the very least, just be polite. Many times I have been the last one off the hill because of taking the time to talk to spectators, it's no big deal. If you’re too busy with setting up or preflighting, a quick explanation of why you can’t talk right now is all it takes. A rude attitude will be something they will never forget and if the subject of hang gliding comes up, that’s the only memory that will stick out for them. It would be a lot better if they had only good things to say about their experience. Who knows who they will mention it to. Something as simple as a positive statement about what they saw and how they were interacted with could spark the desire to fly in another potential pilot.
Even worse is that some pilots were saying there were too many pilots at their sites and they didn’t want any more. That wasn’t all that long ago and look where we are now.
One more thing that doesn’t get addressed enough is the fact that anyone can be a hang gliding instructor. There are no legal restrictions against it, but it is something that should be approached cautiously. A safe, experienced pilot who has good communication skills and is able to clearly demonstrate basic techniques can teach a student to fly. When it’s time for ratings they can then go work with a USHPA instructor so that the newbie can demonstrate the requisite skills and earn the signoffs. For those areas with few or no instructor resources and a smaller pool of potential students it’s a way to get people into it. There has to be a clear understanding of the risks involved for both parties, but that is something that can be easily overcome. People just need to be willing to make the effort.
I’m sorry if this seemed a bit long winded.
#411627
^ I was going to quote and address each point, but since I agree with everything you said I'll just say so!

Every site seems to have a designated ambassador who's a good communicator, so those people should be supported. In my case I have mini business cards with a QR code with my contact and social media accounts. Unfortunately a lot of the current generation of senior pilots don't seem to be so good with that... so good idea to have junior members be "ambassadors"
#411630
red wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:49 am The new solid-state batteries charge much faster, and last longer. They are rebuildable(!) with hand tools. Materials are common and recyclable. Due to the usual environmentally-conscious aspects of our HG community, I would wish to avoid Lithium batteries, but YMMV.
Solid state batteries still use lithium as the electrolyte. Manganese, phosphate, iron, and lithium are not exotic, and are recyclable. The issue is the way the battery is assembled, dictates the cost of processing when they are recycled.
#411632
Takeo77 wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:45 pm A lot of the problem as I see it is the retention rate at various phases. If you just look at the retention from the Day 1 Lesson to Day 2 lesson the loss rate is incredible just looking at my own limited statistical analysis. Something like 1-2% of anyone who takes a hang gliding lesson even shows up to the second day.

The other huge loss point is Between the H2 and H3 ratings. In the short time I've been flying the common "keep" rate between the two ratings was like 9%. Fortunately through a lot of local work our 2020-2021 retention rate was like 44%.

This low rate of H2->H3 transition has HUGE implications in instruction because the basic instructor rating requires H3. Now if you're only keeping 0.1% of people who take a first day lesson you're going to run out of the basic material to make instructors real fast. The next urgently needed step is to reduce the administrative overhead to obtain a basic instructor rating so you can use these new instructors to force multiply against the 1st day ->2nd day loss rate.

Not only does the administrative overhead have to be reduced in making basic instructors, but you need instructor administrators that "evangalize" becoming an instructor instead of passively waiting for candidates, this isn't happening in any community in which I have flown.

In a previous life I was both a Training Non-Commissioned Officer and a Standards/Evaluation program leader in a military unit. As a training program leader I'd have people that showed up for first days of instruction identified, that I knew would probably make good instructors 3-4 years down the road. Once these people were identified they'd be subtly tracked towards the apprentice instructor pipeline, with extra training, mentoring etc. Nothing I have seen indicates this level of basic forethought in HG and it desperately needs it. If an instructor administrator isn't actively pitching to up and coming pilots the idea of becoming a basic instructor (which you need if you ever want advanced instructors) then they aren't doing their job.

Becoming a basic instructor who teaches without compensation still needs a legally tenable method to offset costs.

So TL:DR

If we're going to do community training you need:

1. Draw on a pool of recruits that don't quit after the first day/ change training up to keep more people (1st day ->2nd day retention)

2. Focus on getting people trained and promoted through the ranks all the way to h3 (h2->h3 retention)

3. Identifying people early who may have the talent and ability to pass on their knowledge to new people (The military does this through first assignment instructor pilots) (Finding basic instructor stock)

4. Reduce overhead on people wanting to be instructors, and put them on a clear track/ensure they are progressing (making new basic instructors)

5. Have instructor administrators that actively evangelize becoming basic instructors.

6. Find a way to offset costs for instructors not taking direct compensation.
Exactly way better with word then me