This forum is dedicated to discussions on how to grow the sport of hang gliding. We will take a methodical approach to collect data and come up with implementable ideas on how to increase our numbers. This includes effective marketing, lead generation, site access issues, improving regulations, lack of instructors, lack of sites, etc

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By ryder115
#368148
Is it just me or is hang gliding dominated by middle age guys? :) Seriously though, we need more young pilots in this sport! I'm 17 and was introduced to flying via a discovery tandem at Kitty Hawk, and it really blows my mind that more people my age don't try it and become addicted! Thus far I've met only one other pilot my age, so here's my question: who else is out there? And how can we get more of our generation to join the dwindling HG community?
By blindrodie
#368153
You could always start by taking away the internet and video games...but that would only work for a few!

Flying hang gliders is a weird, special and amazing activity. It appeals in a way that most can be excited and wondered by, yet few choose to attempt or pursue. I don't get why young folks are not attracted in droves, but...

...I'm good with that.

8)
User avatar
By JohnFritsche
#368156
Scraping together a few grand and the time needed to get into this is not easy for the young. I got to start at age 19 really cheap due to special circumstances (long story). If not for that unique situation, I couldn't have afforded what it now costs to become a competent solo pilot with decent gear for another 10 years.
User avatar
By raquo
#368158
I wanted to say "me!" but then I remembered that I'm 28 already, quickly approaching middle age. Oh well.

I've been hanging around a HG school in Hope BC for two years. Most students who dropped out did so because they wanted to travel with their glider, and because in the end they had nowhere to store it. Once they realized how much hassle is involved in hang gliding, they were gone. A couple switched to PG, others are perhaps gone for good.

Many on this forum cherish the difficulty of engaging in hang gliding. They will tell you that the sport is better off without noobs who don't want to dedicate themselves fully to the sport. Manufacturers generally agree as well, refusing to make gliders more portable, and mostly optimizing their gliders for current pilots rather than for new generations.

Look at which similar sports are doing better than hang gliding – paragliding, kiteboarding. What do they have in common? Portability, convenience, easy of use, easy to get started.

This stereotype about youth videogaming is utter BS. I mean, it's true to some extent, but it's not relevant at all. The vast majority of the youth I know are not gamers in a way some people imagine them to be. There are tons of people engaging in comparable action sports – they just avoid hang gliding because it's not approachable. And we the community don't want to make it approachable. We want only the most desperate to join. Well, we get what we want.
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By davisstraub
#368162
They will tell you that the sport is better off without noobs who don't want to dedicate themselves fully to the sport. Manufacturers generally agree as well, refusing to make gliders more portable, and mostly optimizing their gliders for current pilots rather than for new generations.
This is utter nonsense.

You can purchase a number of gliders that can be transported at about seven feet.

How about having some idea of what you are talking about before opening your mouth?

https://www.willswing.com/hang-gliders/falcon-4/
User avatar
By JohnFritsche
#368163
davisstraub wrote:
They will tell you that the sport is better off without noobs who don't want to dedicate themselves fully to the sport. Manufacturers generally agree as well, refusing to make gliders more portable, and mostly optimizing their gliders for current pilots rather than for new generations.
This is utter nonsense.

You can purchase a number of gliders that can be transported at about seven feet.

How about having some idea of what you are talking about before opening your mouth?

https://www.willswing.com/hang-gliders/falcon-4/
"Mostly optimizing their gliders for current pilots rather than for new generations"??!!
Every major manufacturer makes gliders that make learning a far easier, safer, more pleasant experience than the crap I had to learn on. Especially WW--the Falcon is a beautiful trainer, but then they topped that with the Condor and Alpha. How much easier can it get?
Davis, isn't the process of getting those gliders down to seven feet, and then back to 20 feet, rather arduous and time-consuming? I thought it at least doubled set-up/break down time, but maybe things have improved or I've been misinformed.
User avatar
By Cloudhopper
#368164
ryder115

Spread the word.... Tell your friends how amazing it is. I have two sons your age that show no interest. I don't push them at all, but would support them fully if they yearned to fly. I've been flying since age 13. Middle age is now a distant memory for me. Equipment cost??? you can still pick up great gear for the cost of ski equipment. And then it's almost free (gas and time)

We need more young folks in the sport. Evangelize!

Tom
User avatar
By raquo
#368165
> You can purchase a number of gliders that can be transported at about six feet.

Like what? EDIT: the link to Falcon was added a bit later. My point still stands.

Falcon-style shortpack is only reasonable for airline travel. You aren't going to do that every time you go fly if you need to store your glider in your apartment.

Finsterwalder gliders are easier but not much faster to shortpack. Still takes ~45 minutes to setup depending on how skilled you are with it. They also look outdated and students in America don't know about them.

Bautek Astir packs nicely into 10 ft, but it still doesn't fit in elevators. They also don't make small gliders.

> How about having some idea of what you are talking about before opening your mouth?

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I am unable to store any novice hang glider in my apartment and not spend ridiculous amounts of time assembling and disassembling it every time I want to fly. I am also unable to find an apartment on ground floor into which I could bring a hang glider through a balcony / window / patio and that has a long enough wall for it. Good for you if you live in a house or have a garage, but this is not the case for most 20-somethings, which is who the topic is about.
User avatar
By tom emery
#368166
Hey Raquo,
Come to Crestline. Store your glider in one of our containers. One hundred dollars per year.
Ride up in one of our shuttles.
Fifteen dollars to launch.
Refresh yourself with a cold drink afterwards.
One dollar a can.
You can even land on your wheels on our beautiful grass.
Flaring is so much work.
IT DOESN'T GET ANY EASIER
User avatar
By Paul H
#368167
raquo wrote:Many on this forum cherish the difficulty of engaging in hang gliding. They will tell you that the sport is better off without noobs who don't want to dedicate themselves fully to the sport. Manufacturers generally agree as well, refusing to make gliders more portable, and mostly optimizing their gliders for current pilots rather than for new generations.

Look at which similar sports are doing better than hang gliding – paragliding, kiteboarding. What do they have in common? Portability, convenience, easy of use, easy to get started.

Difficulty? Not at all. There is some effort involved just like in most things.
If by dedicating themselves you mean that they're expected to commit to learning how to do it safely, then yes, we're better off without them if they are unwilling to make that effort. Make no mistake, hang gliding will kill you if you don't do it right.
How do you suggest that the manufacturers make hang gliders more portable? Paragliders are available right now and they fit into a big backpack. If you want a better performing wing then you have to deal with an airframe. Performance increases require a more defined airfoil and that requires a structure to maintain that shape.
Todays entry level gliders are so much easier than what was available just a few years ago.
User avatar
By raquo
#368168
JohnFritsche wrote:Every major manufacturer makes gliders that make learning a far easier, safer, more pleasant experience than the crap I had to learn on. Especially WW--the Falcon is a beautiful trainer, but then they topped that with the Condor and Alpha. How much easier can it get?
It takes you 10-20 flying days to learn to fly, after which Alpha vs Falcon becomes more irrelevant every day. Maybe you'll learn 30% faster / easier on an Alpha. Alpha is surely a step in the right direction, but it doesn't address the storage roadblock that most potential pilots face.

If you live in an apartment, it's most often a dealbreaker. Maybe you have an airpark near you offering storage, but most people don't. Maybe you have a good friend with a garage, but then you're lucky (and they're awesome), but you still need to drive to them and bother them every time. Storage companies (in Vancouver at least) don't have such long rooms, or if they do, they cost a few grand per year or are an hour too far or both.

It's funny that everyone just brushes off this logistics problem as an inalienable cost of doing hang gliding, simply because it existed for as long as hang gliders did. Then we have annual "why is our sport dying" threads which raise lots of good points such as availability of instructors, but completely disregard this one. I don't know why, I'm sick of saying the same stuff over and over again. The only reason I even bother is that someone who is considering building a portable hang glider will perhaps see some of my posts and that'll take him 1% closer to deciding to do it.
User avatar
By raquo
#368171
Paul H wrote: If by dedicating themselves you mean that they're expected to commit to learning how to do it safely
Being able to store a hang glider, or otherwise having the willingness to spend hours driving around and thousands of dollars renting storage space (if you're lucky to find a suitable one) has nothing to do with being willing to learn and fly safely. Personally I am only able to fly HG because my friend is so kind to store my hang glider. But he's just an overall insanely kind guy. Otherwise I would need to spend about $4000 / year on its storage one way or another.
Paul H wrote: How do you suggest that the manufacturers make hang gliders more portable?
A couple options, actually:

- Bowsprit designs (even Bautek Astir fits into 10 ft already)
- Innovative designs (Delka, Longbow, Brett Snellgrove's designs)

If you go with conventional bowsprit design, you just need to break the LE at different points (relative to Astir) and make the rear end of the keel detachable. Sure this is armchair HG design to 11, but as far as I know manufacturers don't make portable gliders because they think they won't be in demand rather than because it's completely infeasible.
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By Paul H
#368172
raquo wrote:
It's funny that everyone just brushes off this logistics problem as an inalienable cost of doing hang gliding, simply because it existed for as long as hang gliders did. Then we have annual "why is our sport dying" threads which raise lots of good points such as availability of instructors, but completely disregard this one. I don't know why, I'm sick of saying the same stuff over and over again. The only reason I even bother is that someone who is considering building a portable hang glider will perhaps see some of my posts and that'll take him 1% closer to deciding to do it.

Nobody brushes it off, it's something you have to figure out how to deal with. Flying machines of all types are a series of compromises. If you want more of one thing you have to be willing to give something else up. That's true of hang gliders, paragliders, Cessnas, F-22s, and everything else. How do you suggest a hang glider be made more portable? There are some out there that break down to 2 meter lengths, but you have made it clear you find the extra time necessary to deal with them to be unacceptable for you. What do you suggest?
User avatar
By Paul H
#368173
raquo wrote: A couple options, actually:

- Bowsprit designs (even Bautek Astir fits into 10 ft already)
- Innovative designs (Delka, Longbow, Brett Snellgrove's designs)

If you go with conventional bowsprit design, you just need to break the LE at different points (relative to Astir) and make the rear end of the keel detachable. Sure this is armchair HG design to 11, but as far as I know manufacturers don't make portable gliders because they think they won't be in demand rather than because it's completely infeasible.
Then why don't you fly one of the bowsprit wings? You do realize that the rear part of most glider keels already detach, right?
"Breaking" the leading edges is more difficult than you might think it is. Extra structure/materials for the joints would add weight, expense, and could change the flexing characteristics of the tubing and affect the handling of the wing, requiring some redesign. Would there be a sufficient demand for that to bring it to market.
Of course manufacturers are going to build what sells, how else would they stay in business?
Some pilots have built their own wings. You could do the same if you are unhappy with everything that is available.
User avatar
By raquo
#368176
I'm pretty sure Astir will be my next glider, even disregarding its 3m shortpack feature – I just like bowsprits. I didn't have the money to buy a new one when it was time to get my own glider (Euro exchange rate was so high until recently, plus shipping from Europe and import duties...), and there were no used ones for sale anywhere I could drive.

> "Breaking" the leading edges is more difficult than you might think it is

Well, it's been done already. Even disregarding esoteric one-off gliders, the same Astir has this feature, as did its predecessors Zephir and Pamir. But Astir is designed to fit in a station wagon, so it only goes to 10 ft. I could probably make 10 ft work for a ground floor apartment, but my wife can't because Astir has no small size for her, and she probably can't handle >60% of her body weight even if she had enough weight to control it in the air.

By the way, all Bautek gliders are about the same weight, it doesn't have anything to do with this model being portable. The leading edge connections are actually pretty trivial judging by the pictures in the manuals, and setting them up shouldn't add more than 5 minutes to setup time, unlike the methods where you disassemble the glider to nuts and bolts.
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By Comet
#368177
Not everyone climbs Mt Everest. Darn few race Indianapolis.

Hang gliding has always been, and always will be, a fringe sport.
Face it: we are a small and exclusive fraternity. Not everyone was meant to fly hang gliders.

ryder115, you are an exceptional individual!


.
User avatar
By Paul H
#368180
raquo wrote: > "Breaking" the leading edges is more difficult than you might think it is

Well, it's been done already. Even disregarding esoteric one-off gliders, the same Astir has this feature, as did its predecessors Zephir and Pamir. But Astir is designed to fit in a station wagon, so it only goes to 10 ft. I could probably make 10 ft work for a ground floor apartment, but my wife can't because Astir has no small size for her, and she probably can't handle >60% of her body weight even if she had enough weight to control it in the air.

By the way, all Bautek gliders are about the same weight, it doesn't have anything to do with this model being portable. The leading edge connections are actually pretty trivial judging by the pictures in the manuals, and setting them up shouldn't add more than 5 minutes to setup time, unlike the methods where you disassemble the glider to nuts and bolts.
Those gliders were designed to break down that way. Doing it to a glider that wasn't originally designed that way is a different problem entirely. Bautek builds nice gliders and I have heard good things about the handling of the Pamir, but be prepared for less performance than an equivalent wing from another manufacturer with the drag from the extra wires and tubing sticking out in front. Again, it's all about compromise.
It's possible that there isn't a solution for a glider for your wife. If you can't come up with storage for a glider that will work for her then she might have to decide to pursue something else. If that is unacceptable you will have to figure out what you can possibly do/give up/or compromise about to make it possible.
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By raquo
#368181
Her glider is right next to mine in our friend's garage, so we're good for now. But it's just random luck that we have such a good and garage-endowed friend, and at a reasonable distance...
By Xpanse
#368183
raquo - I share your point of view. Logistics and lack of instructors is blocking growth of our sport.

As for your troubles - I have solved the problem by renting a wall. Just a wall! It was easy to arrange. And it is fairly cheap. Floor is used by somebody else :)

When I had agreement signed a couple of pilots joined me and now we store 4 hang gliders on our wall equipped with wall racks.
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By combat.is.hell
#368184
I was ready and wanting to take on hanggliding by the age of 19. But the logistics had me waiting until I got a car and a driving licence age 28.

Being a flight enthousiast that had storage space and daddy's money available (and didn't play video games), I still couldn't get into this fantastic sport until I was mobile. As others mentioned above, it is a niche sport that requires time, money, dedication etc etc but also requires that you have a practical solution on the logistics of it all.

So I think it is totally normal and expected that there are more middle aged flyers out there than young ones.