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By Odakyu-sen
#401201
My trusty 1st-generation Sony HDR AS-10 is getting a little long in the tooth. I bought it back in 2013. It's 1080p high-definition was a huge step forward at the time.

The new 4K action cameras, which cram in around 4 times the data per frame than the old 1080 format are now common. I wonder just how much more resolution one could need?

Has anyone made the jump from 1080p high-definition to 4K? Did you need to get a much bigger memory card for your 4K camera compared with your 1080p high-definition one? Did you notice a significant increase in the size of the recorded video files?

Most importantly, what tangible benefits do you think your 4K camera is giving you that your 1080p high-definition camera did not?
User avatar
By entelin
#401202
Recording in 4k will take on average four times the amount of storage space as the dimensions are double 1080p.

*If* you have a 4k monitor and a computer fast enough to play it back at high quality then certainly it will be a large and noticable improvement.

However if your target is online streaming 4k is mostly irrelevant as most people run 1080p, and compression needed for streaming hurts the quality anyway.

That said, good 4k capable cameras are still a good idea as generally even at 1080p the video quality will be improved. In addition they generally allow higher framerates. For example my little session 5 can record at 1080p @ 90fps, useful for slowing down bits for personal review or effect.

One last consideration, shooting at higher fps works best in good light and degrades in quality in lower light. However in some cases shooting at 4k and downsampling to 1080p as the final compression step can result in a higher quality 1080p video. Whether that is true or not depends on how the camera is setup internally so it's just down to individual testing.

A word of warning, there are many cheap Chinese cameras out there that are genuinely terrible despite advertising impressive numbers. For example some will advertise 4k capability, but don't actually shoot at 4k, they just stretch the image out to 4k, which obviously will look terrible. There are a few good non GoPro cameras out there, just be careful.
#401247
Some high res cameras are using HEVC file format. Uses less storage space. https://gopro.com/help/articles/block/hevc

Shooting higher quality does use more sd capacity of coarse. Also, generally uses more battery. Also, 4k is very taxing on an older pc to edit. You need a program that can handle it as well as a fairly powerful PC.
That being said, you get much better quality footage.

2.7 k is a decent medium (IMO) for sd, battery and editing.

The stuff you see on online has some quality loss, so the higher res you use the better it looks in the end.
2.7 and 4K look incredible at home. 2.7 looks really good online, 4k youtube looks excellent on a 4K tv or monitor, and still looks great when played on non 4K equipment.
Hope that helps.

For a rough comparison:
The beginning footage was shot in 720 with a old contour camrera, the rest was 4K -60fps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqUq5_e_3Y4

2.7k - 60 fps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1T16bK_aQ

1080 - 60fps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jGNGBDBDiM

720 - 60 fps converted to 1080

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G29CXR2EMpk
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#401288
IMHO, as someone who currently works as a photographer and who's degree is in video and film production...

Benefits of shooting AND editing in 4K:
  • More "future-proof" if you plan to keep the footage you get
  • Better resolution, in general should give a sharper and more detailed image*
  • Ability to pull 8 megapixel images from video*
Benefits of shooting in 4k but editing in 1080:
  • Ability to crop into the image up to 2x without noticeable pixelation (jagged blocky edges), so you could zoom in on a point of interest, and even make it appear the camera could pan or tilt a bit
  • Should give a sharper and more detailed image*
  • Raw footage is "future proof", hard drives have come way down in price... save it all!
  • Finished edits take up less drive space, upload easier and faster
  • Not that many people have 4K computer monitors yet, or 4K TV's (if they even watch videos you post on their TV to begin with- most YouTube etc is viewed on a computer, tablet, phone... delivering 4K to these devices is currently WAY overkill!)
  • If you have the software and know-how, the ability to crop into the 4K image also means you can do some image stabilization in post
  • Ability to pull 8MP images from (original) video
Drawbacks to 4K:
  • File sizes are larger, need bigger memory cards, more hard drive storage
  • Requires more processing power when editing (or at the very least more patience!)
  • Most videos are watched on monitors, TVs, tablets, phones that do not have 4k displays
  • Lens quality becomes more important with a higher resolution image
  • Focus becomes more important with a higher resolution image (the clearer the in-focus details are, the more obvious it becomes when something is out-of-focus)
  • Generally speaking, small camera sensors that capture higher resolution aren't as sensitive- and don't perform as well in low light situations
  • Compression and BITRATE!!!*
* Important factor to consider = Compression and Bitrate
Compression is, in simple terms, the method used to take a large amount of data and squish it smaller. There are a few different resolutions of "4K" but the most common is 3840 × 2160, also called Ultra-High-Definition or UHD. If you take the pixel dimensions and multiply them you get megapixels... 3840 × 2160 = 8,294,400, or about 8 megapixels.

Look at the file size of any 8MP photo camera, and you'll realize the dilema with video... video is at least 24 (in the US, 25 elsewhere) frames-per-second. An 8MP image would be 24 MB uncompressed, but an old 8MP photo camera might actually produce around a 4MB JPEG file (JPEG is a type of image compression). If your video camera captured that same quality, you'd have 4MB x 24 fps or 96 megabytes-per-second of video?! Plus audio :shock: Obviously that would be madness... so the images need to get compressed. Most methods of compression intelligently throw away data... "intelligently" meaning they are supposed to take away data in as imperceptible way as possible. Some do this better than others... and some throw away more than others.

BITRATE! - This can be a more informative measure of quality for a video camera than resolution or what codec (compression method) is used. This is basically the size of the file being created... the bigger the file, the more room for information there is for each frame of your video (and audio). There is lots of info on the web about all different cameras and I'm sure you can find the bitrate(s) for any camera you're considering. The bigger the bitrate, the more information the file CAN hold (provided the camera's sensor or lens or processesor is capable of producing that much information... otherwise you get a big fat file with no more value in it)

Why it matters? Well if a 1080 camera and a 4K camera both capture video at a bitrate of 60 mbps (that's megaBITS, not megaBYTES, per second)... and both cameras use the same form of compression to squeeze the image data down to that size... the 4k camera is squeezing twice as many pixels into that 60 mbps... which means each frame of the 4k image is being compressed MORE than the 1080 image is. Does that mean the 1080 image is actually higher quality? Not necessarily, but sometimes yes that can actually be the case!

Generally speaking, 4K cameras will be better than 1080 cameras... because they are newer. Not actually because they are 4k... but because 4k is a newer technology, so the image sensor in the camera, and the processor, and probably the compression codec, are likely better than what you might find in a similar 1080 cam.

Lots of generalities above... every rule has it's exceptions, so I'm trying to be accurate and specific but also not give bad advice. If I didn't help understand 4K, at least I cured your insomnia...
:roflcat:
#401289
AIRTHUG wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:28 pm IMHO, as someone who currently works as a photographer and who's degree is in video and film production...

Benefits of shooting AND editing in 4K:
  • More "future-proof" if you plan to keep the footage you get
  • Better resolution, in general should give a sharper and more detailed image*
  • Ability to pull 8 megapixel images from video*
Benefits of shooting in 4k but editing in 1080:
  • Ability to crop into the image up to 2x without noticeable pixelation (jagged blocky edges), so you could zoom in on a point of interest, and even make it appear the camera could pan or tilt a bit
  • Should give a sharper and more detailed image*
  • Raw footage is "future proof", hard drives have come way down in price... save it all!
  • Finished edits take up less drive space, upload easier and faster
  • Not that many people have 4K computer monitors yet, or 4K TV's (if they even watch videos you post on their TV to begin with- most YouTube etc is viewed on a computer, tablet, phone... delivering 4K to these devices is currently WAY overkill!)
  • If you have the software and know-how, the ability to crop into the 4K image also means you can do some image stabilization in post
  • Ability to pull 8MP images from (original) video
Drawbacks to 4K:
  • File sizes are larger, need bigger memory cards, more hard drive storage
  • Requires more processing power when editing (or at the very least more patience!)
  • Most videos are watched on monitors, TVs, tablets, phones that do not have 4k displays
  • Lens quality becomes more important with a higher resolution image
  • Focus becomes more important with a higher resolution image (the clearer the in-focus details are, the more obvious it becomes when something is out-of-focus)
  • Generally speaking, small camera sensors that capture higher resolution aren't as sensitive- and don't perform as well in low light situations
  • Compression and BITRATE!!!*
* Important factor to consider = Compression and Bitrate
Compression is, in simple terms, the method used to take a large amount of data and squish it smaller. There are a few different resolutions of "4K" but the most common is 3840 × 2160, also called Ultra-High-Definition or UHD. If you take the pixel dimensions and multiply them you get megapixels... 3840 × 2160 = 8,294,400, or about 8 megapixels.

Look at the file size of any 8MP photo camera, and you'll realize the dilema with video... video is at least 24 (in the US, 25 elsewhere) frames-per-second. An 8MP image would be 24 MB uncompressed, but an old 8MP photo camera might actually produce around a 4MB JPEG file (JPEG is a type of image compression). If your video camera captured that same quality, you'd have 4MB x 24 fps or 96 megabytes-per-second of video?! Plus audio :shock: Obviously that would be madness... so the images need to get compressed. Most methods of compression intelligently throw away data... "intelligently" meaning they are supposed to take away data in as imperceptible way as possible. Some do this better than others... and some throw away more than others.

BITRATE! - This can be a more informative measure of quality for a video camera than resolution or what codec (compression method) is used. This is basically the size of the file being created... the bigger the file, the more room for information there is for each frame of your video (and audio). There is lots of info on the web about all different cameras and I'm sure you can find the bitrate(s) for any camera you're considering. The bigger the bitrate, the more information the file CAN hold (provided the camera's sensor or lens or processesor is capable of producing that much information... otherwise you get a big fat file with no more value in it)

Why it matters? Well if a 1080 camera and a 4K camera both capture video at a bitrate of 60 mbps (that's megaBITS, not megaBYTES, per second)... and both cameras use the same form of compression to squeeze the image data down to that size... the 4k camera is squeezing twice as many pixels into that 60 mbps... which means each frame of the 4k image is being compressed MORE than the 1080 image is. Does that mean the 1080 image is actually higher quality? Not necessarily, but sometimes yes that can actually be the case!

Generally speaking, 4K cameras will be better than 1080 cameras... because they are newer. Not actually because they are 4k... but because 4k is a newer technology, so the image sensor in the camera, and the processor, and probably the compression codec, are likely better than what you might find in a similar 1080 cam.

Lots of generalities above... every rule has it's exceptions, so I'm trying to be accurate and specific but also not give bad advice. If I didn't help understand 4K, at least I cured your insomnia...
:roflcat:
Thats some great info.
Thanks for taking the time.
User avatar
By entelin
#401290
The main thing to stress above is that a 4k camera may or may not shoot 1080p video at higher quality than a 1080 video compressed from 4k. It's important to test this as it depends on the bitrate actually used. I don't remember if gopro allows you to independently increase the bitrate while shooting 1080... Technically this would be the optimal situation, shoot 1080 natively, but with 4x the bitrate. The downside of shooting in 4k and then editing in 1080, is that it mandates an additional compression step... which may still be worth it depending on the bitrates used originally.

Anyway, you just have to test it each way, in low light and high light to find out which method is optimal for the camera you pick, because the results may be non obvious.
#411593
Thinking on making the change to a 4k handy cam and perhaps some in-flight narration. Ha,maybe I don't want to hear my nasally Aussie accent either, compounded by crashing onto my beak over 45yrs ago.
I still don't own any 4k monitors or tv's-I wonder has much changed since this 4yr+ topic was posted? Col.
User avatar
By red
#411594
Charlie Romeo wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:36 pm Thinking on making the change to a 4k handy cam and perhaps some in-flight narration. Ha,maybe I don't want to hear my nasally Aussie accent either, compounded by crashing onto my beak over 45yrs ago. I still don't own any 4k monitors or tv's-I wonder has much changed since this 4yr+ topic was posted? Col.
Charlie R.,

I'm no help on video topics, but I am a member of the state storytelling guild here. Now I do not know what software may be available there, but here I can get and use Audacity, a simple sound recorder/editor program, and it is free. A microphone and speakers are all you need for the computer, but better gear can produce better results. I tell our new members to record their tales on the computer, and then listen to the playback. If something does not sound good, you can work to change your wording or vocalizations on the next attempt, or refine those parts which are the best of your work already. I really appreciate the "Aussie" expressions and accent; it adds a unique flavor to the tales there.

All that to say, Never put yourself down. The world has volunteers on staff, who will do that for you at no charge. 8)
Best wishes.
#411601
Charlie Romeo wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:36 pm Thinking on making the change to a 4k handy cam and perhaps some in-flight narration. Ha,maybe I don't want to hear my nasally Aussie accent either, compounded by crashing onto my beak over 45yrs ago.
I still don't own any 4k monitors or tv's-I wonder has much changed since this 4yr+ topic was posted? Col.
---

4K looks amazing, still looks great even after uploading to youtube.
You need to have a pc that can handle editing 4K (its vey system taxing) and a program suited for it as well. The file sizes are larger, so storage space on the memory card and pc can be an issue depending on your system.
Even without a 4k monitor it will look better as it was was filmed at a high quality. Cropping in and getting a still from the film looks much better taken from 4k also
The end result though (IMO) worth it for the better quality to share the experience.

4K
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txTY8clmxEw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3cflB1hPwY (lots of cropped in shots)

2.7k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozsp9PPF30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXeXK6Y2W3M

1080
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8BcW8dHWRw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MQ-tV7He10
#411602
Thanks Red, I'll look into Audacity for possible after flight narration. Great sage advice mate, but it's often the Aussie way to put s--- on everything whether any politics,religions,authority,class etc and that includes ourselves-perhaps it is less now because we're more globalized? :roll:

Thanks too Mike.I agree with your comments on 4k. Was leaning towards in-flight chat,yes I've learnt not to talk too much when making family videos!-will remember that in the sky.
Just wondering mate on your camera set-up and your in-flight audio.I see you talking into a chest mounted mike? As always love your stuff-looks cccold when I see snow? settling onto your gloves! 8) Col.
#411603
Charlie Romeo wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:48 pm Thanks Red, I'll look into Audacity for possible after flight narration. Great sage advice mate, but it's often the Aussie way to put s--- on everything whether any politics,religions,authority,class etc and that includes ourselves-perhaps it is less now because we're more globalized? :roll:

Thanks too Mike.I agree with your comments on 4k. Was leaning towards in-flight chat,yes I've learnt not to talk too much when making family videos!-will remember that in the sky.
Just wondering mate on your camera set-up and your in-flight audio.I see you talking into a chest mounted mike? As always love your stuff-looks cccold when I see snow? settling onto your gloves! 8) Col.

That's my speaker mic for my radio. I have some wind fur on it for wind noise reduction and an extra speaker in my helmet with volume control for it.
The gopro I've added some foam on it covering the mic holes, when oriented in the right spot it works well
I like to keep things very simple. Less to deal with, less things to fail.

Yeah, when there is snow, its cold! when its spring and thermals getting high, its even colder!
(The gloves I normally fly with a battery powered)

In flight talking (picks up the radio also fairly good)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK7SX7ro4GE
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#411604
So cool Mike,well done. So you add a power pack and because we operate where we do,no over heating? Any issues at all? :)
#411605
The power bank will let me record as long as I want. The camera battery is only good for an hour and less at freezing temps on its own. Also I can charge my phone on Garmin inreach mini if need be.

No over heating. The camera stops charging when full. The battery pack has a button on it I can press to start it charging again when the camera needs it.