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#406066
It would be the LA County Dept of Beaches and Harbor's rules for Dockweiler Beach hang gliding. They can close it down entirely, as they did for many years when no hang gliding, under any circumstances, was allowed there.

Another great early day HG spot was at Torrance Beach, just down the coast a short distance from Dockweiler. The city of Torrance went so far as to outlaw hang gliding anywhere within the city limits, not just at their great beach cliff soaring site. There just isn't a great outpouring of public anger when hang gliding is outlawed somewhere.

Frank








#406071
"It would be the LA County Dept of Beaches and Harbor's rules for Dockweiler Beach hang gliding. They can close it down entirely, as they did for many years when no hang gliding, under any circumstances, was allowed there."

"There just isn't a great outpouring of public anger when hang gliding is outlawed somewhere.:

I entirely agree on both points, this is why we need cooperation and integrity. Unfortunately I've encountered very little of either with the clubs.

The logic seems to go something like:
1) You have to do what we say.
2) You can't fly without our permission.
3) If you fly without our permission you risk losing it for *EVERYBODY*
4) No, *YOU* can't fly, this is *OUR* site!
5) How dare you question me!

The problem with the above logic is that once trust is broken, there is very little reason for independent pilots to care what clubs have to say. Questioning their rules can result in one of a few things:
1) I find I can fly without their permission.
2) I figure out who I need to talk to in order to fly without their permission.
3) I find that the club is filling an unfortunate political/bureaucratic need and I leave it alone.

Regardless, there is no risk to me or any independent pilot for asking these questions. There is risk for the local clubs, so (IMHO) it would behoove them to learn to share and be honest.
#406122
Disallowed by who?
You seem to be making this difficult to understand. The concessionaire would simply call the local police to have the "pilots" attended to...as these "pilots" would be flying in the area under control of the concessionaire set forward by the county.

Simple, yes?

8)
#406126
"You seem to be making this difficult to understand. The concessionaire would simply call the local police to have the "pilots" attended to...as these "pilots" would be flying in the area under control of the concessionaire set forward by the county."

I have been very clearly asking what law would allow for police involvement. Concessionaire is not a special word for "does whatever they want". There are many concessionaires in parks, from food service to horse rides to ski lifts. They can charge for services rendered, they do not control any space not specifically outlined for exclusive use in their contract. As other people have been allowed to fly, and beach goers still use Dockweiler beaches for various recreational activities, it is silly to assume that the concessionaire has exclusive rights. Once again. Under what law would an independent pilot be arrested for flying their public space?

There are numerous laws which require equal access to public land and airspace. There exist only a few public entities which have made it very difficult for independent pilots to legally use a space, I am only aware of 10 in the county. Everything else has been rumor and heresay with no legal basis. It seems that rumor and heresay are good enough for most people. It's a shame how quickly people give up their rights, especially from a group that claims to be all about enjoying freedom.
#406127
blindrodie:
"You seem to be making this difficult to understand. The concessionaire would simply call the local police to have the "pilots" attended to...as these "pilots" would be flying in the area under control of the concessionaire set forward by the county."
LoganR:
I have been very clearly asking what law would allow for police involvement.
There is no "law". Just the terms of the deal that the concessionaire has with the county via the state, on public land the concessionaire uses 5 daze a week!

LoganR:
...they do not control any space not specifically outlined for exclusive use in their contract.
Oh, but they DO and with a very lawful agreement they have with the county and state!

LoganR:
Under what law would an independent pilot be arrested for flying their public space?
Under a "law" (not really a law) that currently exists AT THIS PARTICULAR location...

LoganR:
It's a shame how quickly people give up their rights, especially from a group that claims to be all about enjoying freedom.
Now you're gettin' somewhere!!

8)
#406128
"There is no "law". Just the terms of the deal that the concessionaire has with the county via the state."

So, you agree there is no law. If there is no law prohibiting an action then it is lawful.

Do you have anything supporting the assumption that the concessionaire controls the public land or airspace? Because there are federal laws against that.
#406130
The law would be trespassing. Does the flight school lease the property? If it's under a lease then the flight school has the right to ask you to leave. If you don't comply and law enforcement is contacted then your hit with the charge. If the county owns the property and you have the direct permission from the county to fly there then no problem. Get it in writing that you have permission to fly and carry it with you. Have the persons name and title that gave you permission and the time you talked to them. If the county says no you can't fly there and they ask you to leave, you must leave or the trespassing charge will be issued.
#406132
Tresspassing on public property.... Wow, you have been brainwashed.

Again, I ask if you have any documentation which states that the concessionaire controls the public property or airspace. They may have exclusive use of certain facilities required to provide the service. I can virtually guarantee that lease does not include exclusive use of the entire beach and or airspace as that is illegal. Concessionaires must have a minimal impact on public space. Eg. At a public ski area a concessionaire may charge for the use of the ski lift, but they cannot prevent an individual from skiing for for free so long as they do not use the lift. A concessionaire cannot require the use of their service for the enjoyment of public property. Once again... What laws would prevent a private pilot from enjoying their public land and airspace.... Does anyone have documentation or is everyone hitting the "I believe" button and paying the extortion fee?
Last edited by LoganR on Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#406133
Yes trespassing on public land. California code, Penal Code 602

(l) Entering any lands under cultivation or enclosed by fence, belonging to, or occupied by, another, or entering upon uncultivated or unenclosed lands where signs forbidding trespass are displayed at intervals not less than three to the mile along all exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails entering the lands without the written permission of the owner of the land, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession, and any of the following:


(1) Refusing or failing to leave the lands immediately upon being requested by the owner of the land, the owner's agent, or by the person in lawful possession to leave the lands.

It's owned by the county and state but if an official tells you to leave and you refuse your trespassing. Simple as that.
#406134
And these public beaches meet the definition of enclosed or cultivated? I think not as many people are on the beach.

Do you think a concessionaire is a public official? They are not.

Do you believe that a law enforcement officer will remove someone from their public land without a law allowing them to? That is also illegal.

Do you simply believe that a pilot is an especially repugnant form of human and doesn't have the right to enjoy their public land?

You still assume that the concessionaire owns the public space, that is illegal. Have you any evidence of this supposed and exclusive control which may exist only to further the aims of the business owner at the expense of the general public? Documentation, anyone? Or has FAR 103 ultralight flying been lost to blind Faith?
Last edited by LoganR on Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#406135
Windsport International is a private company that has a limited contract with the county to have the exclusive right to operate, maintain and carry out investment in a public utility. I.E the use of the location. If they have it set up then to fly that sight you must get permission from them.

My suggestion is take it to a town hall meeting and bring up your concerns.
#406136
"Windsport International is a private company that has a limited contract with the county to have the exclusive right to operate, maintain and carry out investment in a public utility."

One more time. Documentation? Do you have any? Or do you simply accept anything you are told?

As to me taking it up in a town hall meeting. I already got Utah cleared up. I am just wondering why people in other states are so complacent.
#406137
USADT23 thanks for your assistance, however at this time I would advise against feeding the bear! :twisted:

Some folks just can not be reasoned with. I sense frustration now...

LoganR:
Or do you simply accept anything you are told?
Now that's tellin' us! And let's leave the FAA and airspace out of the equation as it will just get you more frustrated.

8)
#406138
I am a bit frustrated. I have been asking why people believe club BS and why pilots don't bother doing their own research. After 2 pages of asking for documentation:
"Or do you simply accept anything you are told?"
Seems like a very reasonable question.

Is there any rational argument which I have ignored? Am I simply a "bear" because I no longer believe the lies and ask for evidence?
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