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By Tormod
#405931
55+ gliders together on a small site! It got a bit busy in front of the volcano, the lift zone was narrow and the thermals didn't go very high. Lots of scary moments, no mid-airs though.
By blindrodie
#405932
Awesome! Lasting impressions?

Well the launch scenery of course. Wish we all had that kind of setup. But that first ATOS launch. I'm pretty sure that wing has those new magnets that Felix discovered in his back yard. He puts them on the leading edges of all the newer models.

Did you see that thing trying to get off the earth!! :thumbsup:

8)
User avatar
By remmoore
#405934
blindrodie wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:00 am
But that first ATOS launch. Did you see that thing trying to get off the earth!!
Huh...what I saw was a good conservative AOA and launch run, as opposed to the nose-high two steppers from most of the others. Plenty of sketchy launch technique in this vid.

RM
By blindrodie
#405938
DUDE it was those ATOS magnets and you know it!

8)
User avatar
By Tormod
#405946
Huh...what I saw was a good conservative AOA and launch run, as opposed to the nose-high two steppers from most of the others. Plenty of sketchy launch technique in this vid.

Read more: viewtopic.php?t=36292#ixzz5aILMJReD
How much extra speed do you need to put into the glider when the wind is blowing at almost 2x stall speed? Better to concentrate on keeping the glider straight and off the lava. That slope is really flat, you need to be a sprinter to take off there in nilwind.
User avatar
By remmoore
#405948
Tormod wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:03 am
Huh...what I saw was a good conservative AOA and launch run, as opposed to the nose-high two steppers from most of the others. Plenty of sketchy launch technique in this vid.

Read more: viewtopic.php?t=36292#ixzz5aILMJReD
How much extra speed do you need to put into the glider when the wind is blowing at almost 2x stall speed? Better to concentrate on keeping the glider straight and off the lava. That slope is really flat, you need to be a sprinter to take off there in nilwind.
I assume pilots are still taught to launch with extra airspeed. There's no harm, and only good, in launching from a shallow-sloped launch with extra speed, assuming a pilot can maintain control while doing so - seemingly a basic skill set. I saw at least a few of the launches where the pilot two-stepped off launch, then barely had control as they slowly flew away.
The rigid pilot had excellent control off of launch and should have been copied by the others.

RM
User avatar
By DMarley
#405949
Yup Rem, the first time I viewed this vid I was shaking my head in wonderment about nearly every launch. But seems I always have some sort of negative comment to share, so I abstained. I'm with ya Rem, better to keep 'er down and haul assets until you can't run any faster, then run faster, and only after that should you let 'er fly. I've seen too many near-botched launches in seemingly nice breezes where the pilots did a "two-step-Tony" launch and the breeze subsided a second later. Oops.

I believe too many pilots transition to a bottle grip far too soon in their launching. Like as soon as the glider lifts off their shoulders. Then inevitably the pilot allows the AoA to increase too much ( nose pop or nearly so) and they lift off with barely enough airspeed.

I find it nearly fool-proof to hold a vine-grip all the way through the launch, then transition to the control bar with barely a hint of a bottle grip within the transition movement. I have much more pitch and roll control with the vine grip while on the launch run and have never had a weak launch with it. Certainly can't say the same when I used to transition too early.

Take a another look at the first rigid launch at 2:29. The pilot clearly holds the DTs with a vine-grip past his launch, then only after clearing the landing gear he transitions to a bottle-grip, then to the CB. Of course, he keeps a reasonable AoA on his initial run... until after launching.... appearing as though he nearly stalls it.

At 4:06, a flexy pilot transitions to the bottle after lift-off, and the launch was not bad, but still he didn't keep the AoA down well enough to really get a fair amount of groundspeed via leg-power and gravity.

Most of the pilots seemed to try to pull through the control frame with their upper body while unwittingly inputing much too much positive pitch on launch. I've seen this at multiple flying sites, especially where the launch ramp or slope is short. The pilots are actually pulling near the bottoms of the DTs and therefor pushing the nose up at a high pitch angle. :crazy: Too much drag from the wing to achieve more-than-adequate groundspeed from leg-power.

The second rigid (5:34) to launch had a typical high AoA, bottle grip launch, and launched slow.

The launch at 6:17 had a vine-grip through launch, but again had too much AoA right from the git-go. So one can see it's not all about the vine-grip. But it can certainly help if the pilot is aware.

I think it is easier (for body mechanics) and more intuitive to transition to the bottle grip too soon. It sometimes takes a big leap of faith and a strong constitution to hold that nose down well and long and remain in the grape-vine grip until well above terra firma.

But then, those boys down there do things their own way. :P

Take a look at the launch at 1:22. Ouch. Glad he pulled it off.

I think this is a great vid. At least if the viewer understands that most every launch shown should not be replicated.
So there... there's my negative comment for today. :shock:
Merry Christmas! :mosh:
User avatar
By Tony Brown
#406034
Two step Tony here. Those launches looked OK mostly, I prefer faster, but I'm old, not so bold. The ones where the pilot/glider descend after initial liftoff look sketchy. Nice to be at or above maneuvering speed, not just above stall speed. There's some real sketchy launch vids on utub even claiming to be 'how to '. Saw one where the pilot goes from starting launch run to control bar and getting into harness boot before the end of the ramp, all within 2 seconds. Too rushed, he might have even trimmed a bush on the way.
As you can see my Atos doesn't have 'those magnets', maybe I'll upgrade. Six Launches in about Two Minutes, (or launching into fall...), been in the video section here a couple weeks. Here, I'll put it under your nose in case you want to whack it!
User avatar
By Tormod
#406037
What you don't consider (or ignore) is that the wind is almost horizontal and blowing in from the sea (laminar) with a speed of 42-50kph (27-32mph), well above flying speed, it just looks slow.

I'd rather copy Manfred Ruhmer, Tom Weissenberger, Seppi Salvenmoser, Blay and more, all featured in the video, before listening to any internet advice.
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By DMarley
#406045
Not to argue, but did you take a look at the grass, the weeds, the wind sock, the way the gliders were handled, and peoples' clothing not flapping in the wind? It would be very surprising if there was 27-32 mph winds on launch. There would likely be many obvious signs screaming at us if the winds were truly at that magnitude. Especially near sea level (~1000-2000 ft msl).
By thermaleo
#406051
Well it certainly didn't look that windy most of the time in the video. And really, who tries to ground handle and launch with no wire assistants in winds of 27 -32 mph? Why would you even try to do that?

The first guy looked to be just showing off his macho ground handling and nearly made an ass of himself. I counted 8 really crappy launches, and several others that were sub par to say the least. In nice laminar ocean air too......

Leo Jones
By DHMead
#406072
Tormod wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:54 pm
I was there, on launch listened to the weather brief and flew myself. Inside information if you will.
Really folks. Critiquing hang glider launches from a video, especially one without any sound, is just about the weakest way to arm chair quarterback flying techniques. We have absolutely no real idea of the wind, the slope, the expertise (or lack thereof) of the pilots, local customs and techniques, or any of a dozen other factors that could contribute to what we are seeing. It is almost painful to see what people post based on quick reactions to the inch sized gliders they are watching on a computer.
High wind, flat slope, laminar flow launched like this one and Monte Cucco in Italy require vastly different techniques than low wind mountain launches and seaside coastal cliff soaring sites.
I always look to the locals for the best guidance and then apply my best judgement regarding whether or not that technique would work for me (or whether or not I could even do that technique). I always admire visiting pilots who do the same with me when at sites that I am familiar with.
So maybe try not to be so quick to judge based on so little information.
User avatar
By Tormod
#406076
DHMead: My thoughts exactly, I've read tons of comments on various incidents and often thought some of the commentators had a point but this time, being there myself, I KNOW they're way of target. 55 launches in 30 minutes without any scary moments should talk for itself but clearly the keyboard warriors know better. I said something about how to launch in high winds or mentioned that among the pilots bashed is a multiple world champion and several top ranked pilots but that was ignored and I was called a liar about the conditions. So basically I'm out, but I'll give some last thoughts

Thing is, launching a modern glider in high laminar winds is a balance, to low a AOA and the glider get sucked uncontrollably forward into the dirt, to high you take off like a rocket and might stall. Perfect technique is to let the glider fly, feel the pull on the hangstrap, the glider MUST fly, lean forward to start a run and fly the glider away from the hill, like in the video. The probability for getting in more than 2-3 steps is low and non-important, the important thing is to keep the airspeed up, wings level and basebar off the dirt. I wasn't lying or mistaken about the wind speed, it looks slow but in reality the gliders are flying much faster than best glide to get away from the hill, in my case I did about 60kph out from launch, plenty of energy to even cope with a total wind stop. Those launches are safe and correct for the site.

If the wind isn't strong enough to let the glider fly, the good old technique of running like hell of course still applies.
#406079
I'm just thinking back to when I first started flying from the: TOWERS LAUNCH up on Mount Diablo here in Northern California. We used to say try to run hard, and run your Glider into the Bushes below launch, and you never will.

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