.

.

All things hang gliding. This is the main forum. New users, introduce yourself.

Moderators: sg, mods

User avatar
By lizzard
#405594
This is not jellyfish bashing in intent at least.

Recently our local coastal site was on, a bit light but the parglider guys were able to launch and got about 1/3 ridge height (above)
I could fly my fun 190 and get to about the same level but was not happy with the height gain in light conditions so i just boated about.


the next day was much the same with more wind forecast so that i could have some fun swooping and banking ...you know just being abird.
as the wind picked up a bit like 13 knots (no white caps but wind lines on the water) the whole site became alive and i could get double the
ridge height ,go low then up and have full confidence with the lift .

Most of the paragliders were landed and one guy who was obviously highly competant took off but would not enter the lift band for fear of being blown back he later told me .

I suppose my point is ,other than light thermally days these machines have even less usefull wind range than a standard rogallo of 1972.
they can soar in 8 knots but si can my floater 190


what is going on here ?








User avatar
By sg
#405601
To be fair, sailplane pilots probably think the same of us.
Some people are fine with really really really narrow flight envelopes. I personally find that boring as hell, thus no interest. But to each his own.

Dune soaring low and fast is one of the most thrilling things I have ever done.
User avatar
By miraclepieco
#405603
sg wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 pm
To be fair, sailplane pilots probably think the same of us.
Regardless of craft, the smaller the window between soarability and blowback, the less margin for error. HGs have about a 20 mph safety window, PGs probably half that.

And yes, some of my coastal soaring flights rank right alongside long-distance XCs for awesome thrills. I have been 2000 ato in 35+ mph wind at the site pictured below, after launching in a mere 12 - an unanticipated combination of conditions that would have put a PG in the ocean.
Attachments
blanco4 (Small).JPG
blanco4 (Small).JPG (52.49 KiB) Viewed 2017 times
User avatar
By lizzard
#405604
I feel some saddness for the paraglider guys who have to land just when the liftband becomes wide and high. They actually need the space !
I understand the convenience factor ....but they have some difficult takeoffs .

I wonder how many paragliders expand to hang gliding ,i know of a few hang gliders who went paragliding but that was mainly about students and safer teaching .
They are probably the simplest to fly ...once launched, of any aircraft.

their un useful flight enevlope has me wondering why so many .

We get sheers and sea thermals here that offer many challenges in almost glass smooth conditions .
those condition almost never happen in 10 knots .
User avatar
By TjW
#405612
They're being flown in higher winds.
Used to be the only time you saw a paraglider on the Crestline ridge was if he was in a lot of trouble.
The newer ones apparently have better penetration.
By bacrdek
#405621
They were probably beginner and/or older PGs. Since "shark nose" technology was introduced around 2012, PGs have dramatically improved in speed, performance, and safety, especially for competition wings.

As already pointed out, all foot launched aircraft have equally crap performance and flight envelope from the point of view of sailplane pilots. The benefit of PG is not just convenience, it enables far more possibilities. Many more landing options and healthy pilots can easily walk to launches that simply aren't accessible to HG. For example, if it's coming over the back, just hike over the top and launch from the other side.

I disagree that paras are the simplest aircraft to fly. PG pilots in mountain conditions need to work to keep the wing inflated and flying properly. Experienced pilots get good at it and find it easy but it takes a lot of practice to fly safely.

Personally I fly and prefer HG, but a fan of PG and just wanted to share a different understanding.
User avatar
By lizzard
#405623
My recent experience was with a lot of patagliders gliders and 1 particular pilot was well versed with almost the latest and a 17 wing.... he had to land ..again no whitecaps.
and no bad rotor on the top landing .

Perhaps development will produce better gear ..its slow burn though.
User avatar
By entelin
#405624
bacrdek wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:08 pm
I disagree that paras are the simplest aircraft to fly. PG pilots in mountain conditions need to work to keep the wing inflated and flying properly. Experienced pilots get good at it and find it easy but it takes a lot of practice to fly safely.
Depends on what your talking about. The difficulty curve in flying hanggliders is all front loaded while the difficulty curve of PG starts very easy, and gets harder from there. In other words, proportionally, paragliders suffer a greater loss of stability and handling as you go up the performance ladder than hanggliders do.

At the low end I think there's no question that PG's are far easier to learn and to have initial success with. Last year a HG pilot I know decided he wanted to fly a PG off a 500 ft ridge here, the PG guys *literally* gave him a 5min crash course and pushed him off the hill, he didn't know how to flare, but he stumbled to a stop at the bottom and was fine. Not something I would do, but do that to someone in a hanglider and they will probably be dead basically every time. So paragliding is easier to learn initially, but it's also easier to have early thermal success with. If a paraglider is in lift, it's going up, you don't have the speed range or the ability to dive enough to mess things up much. A new pilot on a falcon will usually take awhile to master the basics of thermalling, it's still possible to turn too shallow, or too steep, or to pull in too much, to knife down in an uncoodinated turn, etc. A HG gains more sink rate in a turn for any given bank angle vs a PG as well, so managing that balance is much harder on a HG than it is on a PG. Also across the entire PG spectrum ground towing is far more forgiving than HG, one guy I know was paying so little attention on tow that he actually wound up flying in the opposite direction for awhile, still ok :chair: .

On the other end of the spectrum, moving up the performance ladder on a HG is pretty easy. There's a bit of a jump from a single surface to a double surface, but after that moving from something like a S2 to a U2, or a U2 to a T2, really not a big deal, and most people you talk to about their transition will say that it was uneventful and less of a step than they expected when done in calm air. On the flipside there are tons of youtube videos of people getting caught out by jumps in PG performance, often well after they have made a transition to a higher performance wing when flying in active air.

So are paragliders the easiest aircraft to fly? Yes and no. Easy to fly, hard to master when sections of your wing are dramatically changing shape constantly.
User avatar
By lizzard
#405628
we are starting to see inflated leading edges on kite surfer wings ...who knows I might even head to the dark side if things improve ..but at the moment, and they have come a long way, they do not have the versatility necessary for the average conditions encountered in my area at least 8 knots to 25 knots is what i would call average .
Not that im complaining but having the whole site to my self just when the site comes alive suggest s that they are not suitable for purpose ...unless that purpose is to get cash from students in a safe manner. ( no insult intended here)
That said we all fly in the same air and have the same thrills .( except the frontal collapse rubbish)

I do like the beach launch ability they have .
we can always bungee launch ..but what a hassle.
adding power to a hangie is easy too ..again fiddly
here is what my next project will be




Are there people here who went from pg to hg ?

What is the learning curve like?
User avatar
By Tormod
#405629
Rigid paragliders are not the solution to the collapse problem, collapses are a way of managing turbulence by dispersing the energy and are mostly harmless. You either get collapses or a glider who shoots uncontrollably any which way over, around and even under you.
User avatar
By miraclepieco
#405631
Glad to hear those collapses are mostly harmless. Ten chute deployments at one local PG meet in my area. - also claimed by the organizers to be harmless. "Not an accident," they said; "Normal flight, the system worked as it should." As a HG flier who considered deployments as a last ditch life saving measure after a catastrophic wing failure, I had to change my perspective.

In the 1970s, hang gliders had airworthiness issues that resulted in mass casualties and a horrible public image. We formed the HGMA and devised stability systems for wings. PGs were a giant step backwards in airworthiness and public image that, for someone who survived the death days of hang gliding, was hard to accept.
Attachments
myanmar (Small).jpg
myanmar (Small).jpg (62.57 KiB) Viewed 1602 times
User avatar
By miraclepieco
#405656
Tormod wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:38 am
I guess anyone has a right to an opinion as misinformed and biased it might be.

Yeah, I guess you're right...
.
Attachments
myipes.jpg
myipes.jpg (131.93 KiB) Viewed 1423 times
myavatar4.jpg
myavatar4.jpg (22.47 KiB) Viewed 1418 times
iiumages.jpg
iiumages.jpg (2.95 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
myavatar2.jpg
myavatar2.jpg (7.63 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
myipes2.jpg
myipes2.jpg (5.65 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
23.jpg
23.jpg (29.78 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
User avatar
By lizzard
#405658
My bias comes from having the whole ridge to my self in what i know are mild to moderate conditions you kniw when the lift band becomes wide and high. The collapses as normal operation just open other questions that in aviation need a carefull examination by informed and intelligent individuals who have different agendas.

I cant help but examine how easy it is to teach and learn as a driving force, after all if all the ducks are lined up they do get some good airtime and some exciting moments that us hangies just arent cut out for . I like the way the hp wings collapse rather than throw you out of the thermal .

never mind in the 70's we were all considered temporary individuals....but there is a choice .
User avatar
By DMarley
#405699
miraclepieco wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:27 pm
Glad to hear those collapses are mostly harmless. Ten chute deployments at one local PG meet in my area. - also claimed by the organizers to be harmless. "Not an accident," they said; "Normal flight, the system worked as it should." As a HG flier who considered deployments as a last ditch life saving measure after a catastrophic wing failure, I had to change my perspective.
Wow, Yes! So glad to hear!
And coming down under reserve (an acceptable mode of flight?!), uncontrolled, onto power-lines, or trees, or otherwise inhospitable jaguar country, possibly requiring EMS and extraction services being diverted in attempts to preserve otherwise temporary individuals? Not to mention the damage they may cause to the infrastructure (high-voltage lines, etc) and personal properties? :crazy:
At least one of our privately-owned local sites has been permanently revoked because of these pg 'pilots'.
By USHPA7
#405722
Any aircraft that cannot survive zero G or negative G's and maintain its aerodynamic structure and quickly return to controlled flight is not airworthy. I guess it's a good thing for PG flyers that the FAA doesn't need to certify paragliders airworthiness at 0 G or - G's.

I survived a violent turbulent rotor hang glider flight at Guadalupe Dunes that would have definitely killed me in a paraglider. Too low for any rescue chute deployment but high enough for certain death.

Frank Colver
User avatar
By TjW
#405726
FAA doesn't certify any Part 103 aircraft, at any G loading.

I recall Jack Greene in the sailplane community, being very anti-hanggliding in the early years. Which is one reason we have the USHPA and not a larger SSA.
Valle De Bravo Flight

It looks like you had some Good Flying. I hope th[…]

Hey Brosig, I hope you don't mind that I hijack[…]

I've applied to join the Facebook FLPHG group. I […]

Hang gliding is one thing, but paragliding is just[…]