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By pazorin
#403542
Is there any side to side comparison of the WW Sport 3 vs the Moyes Gecko available?

Have any of you had a chance to fly both wings to provide us with a comparision between these intermediate wings?

Thanks!
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By NMERider
#403544
pazorin wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:12 pm
Is there any side to side comparison of the WW Sport 3 vs the Moyes Gecko available?

Have any of you had a chance to fly both wings to provide us with a comparision between these intermediate wings?

Thanks!
I've flown both gliders and for making a buying decision it would be a toss-up for many pilots depending on price, local support and availability. Since I love near both the Wills Wing factory and the Moyes importer, none of that is an issue to me. I personally prefer the Sport 3 155 over the Gecko 155 for a significant number of reasons. If I were to perform a side-by-side task race comparison with a similar pilot it may go either way based upon my 12 hours of S3 and 1/1/2 hours of Gecko time. But overall for me the S3 is the clear winner due to it's lighter weight, quicker handling and significantly higher useful glide speed which is due in part to flutter in the Gecko I tested along with other Gecko owned by pilots I know. Other factors include the more comfortable way the S3 control bar is rigged and the shape of the control bar itself. Have you read my review of the S3? https://issuu.com/us_hang_gliding_parag ... 1804_issuu page 36
Pagen's review of the Gecko https://issuu.com/us_hang_gliding_parag ... 1602_issuu Page 26
You figure out who the independent review really is.
Cheers, JD
By cheesehead
#403548
It's going to be a long time before I buy a new glider, so I haven't been reading all the Sport and Gecko stuff. One thing caught my attention, though, Jonathan: you mentioned flutter on the Gecko which I assume was close to new. Any flutter in a new sail seems to me the result of a design flaw. The Saturn, a wonderful glider, prematurely developed significant flutter, I think between the last two battens before the straight tip one (strut?). I bought a used one with maybe 50 hours, not aware of this problem. I quickly noticed the flutter, which was there even at moderate speeds, and then learned this was common. And flutter only gets worse. Thankfully inserting a very narrow, well-lubed graphite rod into the trailing edge seam fixed the problem and I enjoyed the glider for many flights afterwards. Am I ignorant to expect new sails to have no flutter, except maybe in a 70mph dive?
By cookieflyer56
#403552
NMERider wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:17 pm
pazorin wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:12 pm
Is there any side to side comparison of the WW Sport 3 vs the Moyes Gecko available?

Have any of you had a chance to fly both wings to provide us with a comparision between these intermediate wings?

Thanks!
I've flown both gliders and for making a buying decision it would be a toss-up for many pilots depending on price, local support and availability. Since I love near both the Wills Wing factory and the Moyes importer, none of that is an issue to me. I personally prefer the Sport 3 155 over the Gecko 155 for a significant number of reasons. If I were to perform a side-by-side task race comparison with a similar pilot it may go either way based upon my 12 hours of S3 and 1/1/2 hours of Gecko time. But overall for me the S3 is the clear winner due to it's lighter weight, quicker handling and significantly higher useful glide speed which is due in part to flutter in the Gecko I tested along with other Gecko owned by pilots I know. Other factors include the more comfortable way the S3 control bar is rigged and the shape of the control bar itself. Have you read my review of the S3? https://issuu.com/us_hang_gliding_parag ... 1804_issuu page 36
Pagen's review of the Gecko https://issuu.com/us_hang_gliding_parag ... 1602_issuu Page 26
You figure out who the independent review really is.
Cheers, JD
I think NMERider hit the nail on the head with his review and evaluation, and an unbiased opinion. The comment about local support is the biggest for me. I just purchased the S3 reviewed HG 6 weeks ago, and can honestly say I have 0 complaints. None. Could I have said that about the Gecko? Probably, but I actually think when Wills Wing gets the 170 S3 model going, they will have a wider based selection that accommodates a broader optimum weight range than Moyes. I fly with some Gecko's around Lookout, and I believe 90% of a comparison is the pilot. The glider can only do so much. Where I fly, quick handling is king. Am I biased towards Wills Wing? Yes. But if I honestly thought there was something the Gecko could do so much better, and would make me a much better pilot, loyalty would go out the window.
I read Pagen's review, and some good stuff. I would submit that the S3 (at least the "tuned" model I have), is a better overall selection. I have "heard" the flutter comments from locals before about the Gecko, but have never personally witnessed it, so I take that with a grain of salt. However, I have never heard the "flutter" comment about a Sport. To each his own on that.
I will say the S3R is an absolute joy to fly, and I have had some amazing flights so far on it. If I were the "writer" that NMERider is, I would do a review, but I am not in his league, nor would anyone give a flip about what I thought!
Last comments, and again, my old humble opinion, but a comment Pagen made in the review was on par with what I have experienced since returning to HG the past year after a 30 year layoff. He commented something about "why would anyone want a different glider... and keep the topless wings for the competitions... etc.".. My thought exactly. I have seen too many "locals" jump up to a topless, thinking the glider is going to make them king of the hill, make them better, etc., when all it does is scare the crap out of them because they 1. are not proficient enough to handle the glider 2. they don't fly enough to maintain that proficiency or 3. both!. Ego gets in the way, and they are too "proud" to step back down to a lesser performing glider, then they basically quit. Not good for the sport at all. You must question why you get in the sport anyway. To have fun? To be safe? Then compete? I personally compete with myself first, not others. This is an individual sport. Again, just an ole man's option and thoughts.
By cheesehead
#403554
I agree completely with your final comments, Cookie. I've been flying 30 years without layoffs and have stuck to novice and intermediate gliders for all the reasons you mentioned. My 1st instructor planted that idea in my head. For agressive, competitive pilots who keep their skills sharp, toplesses are just fine. The rest of us will ultimately have more relaxing, safe fun on a sedan. This is not a "sport" to me. I will admit to having some great flights on borrowed pre-topless advanced gliders, The HPAT and XTRALITE, and probably would have bought one if I could have afforded it at the time.
By seb
#403574
I did not have any flutter on my technora top Dacron bottom 2016 gecko. I think the all dacron model suffered from this at higher speeds. I video recorded my trailing edge up to 55 mph and did not notice any. Im sure depending on air any glider can flutter except my atos of course :). I loved the gecko so much that I regretted selling it when I did. I ordered another one over the s3 myself and it should be here in a week and I cannot wait!!

Black and Pink is mine being test flow a few days ago!



Moyes Gliders fly differently than Wills gliders do. They handle different, track different etc. You need to fly them both without the brand consideration and buy the one you dial in with. Thats the most important thing ever. These gliders are going to be so close in performance your not going to notice. You would have to fly them over a very long distance together to really see and even that is difficult because you can be 50 feet away and be in totally different air. It comes down to pilot. If you feel good and connected on a gecko chances are your going to fly it better which means you'll do better. Same goes for a S3! Go to lookout mountain and demo them both on the same day during the conditions you fly in and see for yourself! That is the absolute best way to go about deciding! They have both there for demo! You will either feel way more connected on the wills or on the Moyes and then its an easy decision from there.

Harness makes a huge difference as well. If you fly in a race harness your performance picks up vs a cocoon harness or a boxy harness.

Fly what you dial in with...cant stress that enough.
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By Goldrunner
#403805
I have carefully looked at and flown with the 155 and 170 Technora Geckos and they are beautiful. Absolutely no flutter. The 170 G is an outstanding glider. The attention to detail of the leading edge shape and contour is beautiful. I would like to see a side by side comparison of the ribs of a Gecko vs S3. I think the Gecko probably has a much thinner reflexed airfoil. The Gecko has a super effective VG and can be made very flat and rigid. Although the gliders are similar, the S3 probably has more overall wing volume and is less rigid than the Gecko. So the Gecko's polar might favor slightly higher speeds, while the S3 might be more docile and climb better. Both gliders make my old S2 155 look like a jalopy. I love my S2, but realistically the VG does not do that much and the high speed tracking characteristics with VG full on leave a lot to be desired. I might just drink the Moyes Kool-aid.
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By NMERider
#403806
pazorin wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:12 pm
Is there any side to side comparison of the WW Sport 3 vs the Moyes Gecko available?

Have any of you had a chance to fly both wings to provide us with a comparision between these intermediate wings?

Thanks!
I don't know of any but I'm sure it's been done already although the pilots may only talk among each other and not post anywhere. I wish I could be of more help but I've been taking an extended break from flying to take care of family matters. Hopefully you find your answer.
By cookieflyer56
#403816
NMERider wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:04 pm
pazorin wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 3:12 pm
Is there any side to side comparison of the WW Sport 3 vs the Moyes Gecko available?

Have any of you had a chance to fly both wings to provide us with a comparision between these intermediate wings?

Thanks!
I don't know of any but I'm sure it's been done already although the pilots may only talk among each other and not post anywhere. I wish I could be of more help but I've been taking an extended break from flying to take care of family matters. Hopefully you find your answer.
One thing to keep in mind between the two gliders is the glider weight. For my weight (not hook in weight), the S3R 155 is a perfect fit and weighs 58 lbs. The Gecko is substantially heavier (73lbs), and for an ole man, the lighter weight is appreciated!
By skyhigh123
#403818
Weight is an issue but the stated weight for the Gecko 155 is 65 lbs. It's the 170 which is 73 lbs so the more meaningful weight difference between the two 155 gliders is 7 lbs.

I fly the 170 Gecko and I do find it heavy to carry but a couple of days ago when preparing for the 200 yard uphill carry to takeoff at Val Louron in the Pyrenees a young Spanish passer by offered to help carry the glider. I was delighted to accept. I suppose being and looking 70 years old does bring at least one advantage.
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By NMERider
#403820
skyhigh123 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:27 am
Weight is an issue but the stated weight for the Gecko 155 is 65 lbs. It's the 170 which is 73 lbs so the more meaningful weight difference between the two 155 gliders is 7 lbs.

I fly the 170 Gecko and I do find it heavy to carry but a couple of days ago when preparing for the 200 yard uphill carry to takeoff at Val Louron in the Pyrenees a young Spanish passer by offered to help carry the glider. I was delighted to accept. I suppose being and looking 70 years old does bring at least one advantage.
70? That's inspiring to a 60.
You're correct about the weights. I've flown both 155s and lifted the 170.
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By Wonder Boy
#403832
skyhigh123 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:27 am
Weight is an issue but the stated weight for the Gecko 155 is 65 lbs. It's the 170 which is 73 lbs so the more meaningful weight difference between the two 155 gliders is 7 lbs.

I fly the 170 Gecko and I do find it heavy to carry but a couple of days ago when preparing for the 200 yard uphill carry to takeoff at Val Louron in the Pyrenees a young Spanish passer by offered to help carry the glider. I was delighted to accept. I suppose being and looking 70 years old does bring at least one advantage.
Interesting on the weights,
My WW T2C 144 is 72.5 lbs in the bag, with all pads.....
By alfonze24
#404638
I'm 85 kg.

From the specs:
Gecko 155: Optimal Pilot Weight Range: 70 - 85 kg.
Gecko 170: Optimal Pilot Weight Range: 85 - 100 kg.
Sport 3 155: Optimum Body Weight (kg): 70-98.

Which would be the best choice for me?

I'm thinking the S3 155 since I'm in the middle of the optimal weight range for that glider and it's the lightest one.

I'll be looking to upgrade from my big floater in the next 6-12 months.

Any advice here would be great.
By blindrodie
#404640
What's your flying style? Local floater. XC madman. You have a big floater now. What are you looking to accomplish with a new wing?

8)
By alfonze24
#404641
I'm still a newbie with just 30 hours. I haven't even got to cloud base yet, but will want something that I can fly when it's a bit too strong for my floater. I've flown on days when I couldn't leave the ridge while others on more advanced wings could and had a much more fun time.

I'd like to go XC but not compete, just for fun and PBs.
By blindrodie
#404646
Arm chair internet experts are always a risk. My opinion is just that. Seems the Sport 3 is your best bet. Leaves you some room to grow and gives you more wing to continue to learn soaring without being a beast to battle with. I think the VG on the Sport 3 will also help you continue to learn. Keep us posted!

8)
User avatar
By jcsaal
#404652
I own a Technora Gecko 155 and just recently had the chance to fly the new S3 155, and in my honest opinion, you should try and test fly both if at all possible. They feel very different.
I don't really thing making these kind of glider comparisons do really help.
Glider manufacturers approach their solution to a problem from different angles and the designs are very different.
The Gecko from Moyes is a glider that didn't exist in their lineup before and it borrows or inherits a lot of elements from the Litesport, Moyes coocked the Gecko to bridge the gap they had between the Litesport and the Malibu, whereas on the Wills Wing world the S3 is an evolution of one of the best gliders we ever had on the Sport-2. Yes I had one and loved it.
Both Gliders feel different while at the same time both feel safe, stable and predictable.
One thing I should point out is that the Dacron Gecko and the Technora Gecko might share the design and platform but any similarities end there, there is zero flutter on their Technora sails.
The thing is, no matter how many pilots you ask, and how much they try to be unbiased, every one will lean one way or the other based on preferences.
The Gecko is heavier, no question about it.

I personally came to the Gecko from the opposite direction, meaning I was flying a topless Aeros Combat glider before and wanted to step down... The OP on the other hand is approaching either one of these gliders from the perspective of a Step-Up which requires a lot more thought about where he is right now and where he wants to take his progression with this move, it also requires a very honest assessment on weather he can fly either or within his very own safety envelope.

For ME (This is my opinion) the Technora Gecko 155 gives you a mellow enough glider at VG OFF, but it also ramps up to the vicinity of U2 performance once you pull that VG tight, from full loose to full tight I "believe" the S3 has a little bit more billow and less taut sail, at VG tight the S3 is still a point and go glider without any of the wandering that the older Sport-2 had.
The Gecko will need a bit more coordination at VG tight and in a slipping turn it can give you a quick wake up call if you are not anticipating it.
Both are very forgiving gliders if you approach them with the respect they deserve and both would be great for a good and conservative pilot to move into XC flying.
Again, things become very subjective and I am not going to tell you one is better than the other, there are many things to consider.
I got my Gecko before the S3 came to light... I do not fly as much as I did before and that is why I had to let go my Combat, but, If I had to do it all over again, today... I would still go with the Moyes Gecko... it just "Fits" me better.
By alfonze24
#404654
Thanks for the comments! I will try to fly both before choosing. If both are great to fly then I will prob lean towards the lighter glider since my current glider is heavy enough for me and that's only 25 kg!

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