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#403095
FlyingNinja wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:33 pm
Mike, I get what you are trying to do (make fellow feathers board members look bad) but you are way out of line saying I wrote anything racist or cyber bullying towards Saied. (If so, post it..? )
I just got off the phone with Saied and he claims there is no problem between us and there was no derogatory comment made.
So, either post the comment I made or retract your accusation.

Rob Racer
Fellow feathers president 2018
I just spoke to Saeid and he told me you were not the one who said Ala Akbar. That was your friend Urs Kelenberger. I stand corrected on that matter. I see you removed most of your facebook posts. Did you forget about this one?

Image

Besides being a liar, you are a mean person person Rob. Your word about what Saeid said on the phone means nothing. I have helped Saeid get his own HG.org account today. I will let him stand up for himself from now on.
#403096
Well there ya go mike.. Opening your mouth and making up lies before you have the facts.. (Not surprised at all) after all your backstabbing and derogatory remarks towards me and the Club , don't expect me to be nice to you, you don't deserve it.

Kindly mind your buisinss and leave me out of your ridiculous crusade..
#403098
Rob Rob Rob, you have drank ushpa’s kool aid. I can list quite a few organization no longer with USHPA or their insurance.
Torrey Pines CA.
Adventure Paragliding CO.
Fly Sun Valley ID.
Air Squad Paragliding WA.
Docweilers CA.
Cloud 9 MI.
Walker Mountain OR.
Wood Rat mountain despite ushpa’s lies (public land)
I can go on more organizations and sites. Whay do you think this is happening? Any idea? Well....Ushpa’s heavy handed bureaucracy driving level headed pilots away from renewal. Here’s an idea possibly there’s more of us than you think, but we refuse to join and support ushpa’s lies, since were not members do you think we don’t exist? I don’t know either of you, but I must take Mikes position on this after reading your face book posts. I’m unsure of your motive and diplomacy. Your aligning with a organization that has more communistic ideas than American values. It’s easy to understand unless your hands in the cookie jar also? Like I said, don’t know either of you, but I must as a red blooded American, take Mikes side on this and I’m not alone. Not to throw accusations but the tone of your post is one sided, filled with dysfunctional anger, reminiscent of what we see and hear from USHPA sad. This isn’t my first rodeo been hg for 27 years.
#403102
Yep Rob typical response, that right there tells me your hands in the cookie jar. You got to have motive to align. Of course Torrey Pines is better off, have you been there lately? I know them personally and it’s wonderful now ushpa’s been expelled permently. Or making another of your assumptions? When real pilots started to join in the Hang Gliding fun, we had real ga licenses. So we knew the real requirement as part 103 was a fraction of our type of flying. At that point educated pilots realized these free flight guys don’t know what there talking about, and are way off track. FAA could shed some light on federal requirements for you....no helmet, no fee, no sticker, no insurance, no club, no parachute. Less restriction to operate under FAA but USHPA is more restrictive? USHPA is voluntary FAA isn’t. What’s wrong with this picture Rob? I see why Mike has taken his position and rightfully so. I and many others are following this path. Remember when Trump couldn’t win? Again same people way off track again like USHPA.
#403104
dshman wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:48 pm
Yep Rob typical response, that right there tells me your hands in the cookie jar. You got to have motive to align. Of course Torrey Pines is better off, have you been there lately? I know them personally and it’s wonderful now ushpa’s been expelled permently. Or making another of your assumptions? When real pilots started to join in the Hang Gliding fun, we had real ga licenses. So we knew the real requirement as part 103 was a fraction of our type of flying. At that point educated pilots realized these free flight guys don’t know what there talking about, and are way off track. FAA could shed some light on federal requirements for you....no helmet, no fee, no sticker, no insurance, no club, no parachute. Less restriction to operate under FAA but USHPA is more restrictive? USHPA is voluntary FAA isn’t. What’s wrong with this picture Rob? I see why Mike has taken his position and rightfully so. I and many others are following this path. Remember when Trump couldn’t win? Again same people way off track again like USHPA.

I hope you can read a sectional better than you can read a post here. That was my response, not Rob's.
I last visited Torrey 3 years ago and I got a less than friendly attitude from the people there when I showed up with hang gliders on my truck. I left without setting up. I won't be back. It's not even a very good flying site most of the time, especially compared to the mountain sites in San Diego. I used to live there when the current regime at Torrey was getting its start. Hang glider pilots have not benefited from the outfit that runs the place. If you think that's a good thing then you are welcome to it, but don't try to say that it's good for hang gliding.
Since you keep going on about no fees with GA flying, how much do you spend for hangar rent or tie-down fees? How about fuel? Maintenance and parts? Biennials?
Keep trying to compare those apples and oranges.
By the way, if you want to fly a hang glider without a parachute, helmet, stickers, fees, or club membership, nothing is stopping you. You can find places to do that, but don't go to a place with that infrastructure already in place and then expect the locals to be ok with you wanting to ignore all the effort they have put into place over the years to open and maintain a flying site just so you can tell them you don't want to follow the rules.
#403108
I’ve been doing this long enough to know how to inforce law. People or clubs trying to restrict public access cave in when state police show up and tell them it’s a crime (harassment ) to approach anyone on public land without consent. So go try that, let me know how it works for you.
#403110
dshman wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:18 am
I’ve been doing this long enough to know how to inforce law. People or clubs trying to restrict public access cave in when state police show up and tell them it’s a crime (harassment ) to approach anyone on public land without consent. So go try that, let me know how it works for you.
It's Enforce.
Your example doesn't really stand up. If a governmental body that controls an area of public land has decided to designate a group or person/s to act as their agent for administering or controlling that area to enforce a set of rules for an activity then enforcement of those rules is not harassment. We're not talking about physically restraining someone. That's another issue. Most government reps don't have the time and/or knowledge to administer less well know activities and would rather have groups who have intimate knowledge of it to handle it for them.
If you truly believe that you can do whatever you like on public land then how about you ride a dirtbike through Ed Levin park. It's public land, isn't that your right?
#403112
We already had this situation here embarrassing for the club. My buddy is Forestry law enforcement. I had him come up to launch and educate others of public land rights and his ability to arrest anyone attempting. Since your unclear of it definition I’ll post it for you. You need to read this it will amaze you that approaching me on public land after I ask you to back away is harassment period, especially if I video tape it. .
#403113
Ride a dirt bike man you reaching deep now. Nothing to do with nomotorize public land use. Can’t take the fact public property is been set aside for all of us not for a club or organization to control, besides that would be a crime. Good luck with those fantasies. My buddy will have something to say about it in Oregon.
#403114
Paul H wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:35 am
dshman wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:18 am
I’ve been doing this long enough to know how to inforce law. People or clubs trying to restrict public access cave in when state police show up and tell them it’s a crime (harassment ) to approach anyone on public land without consent. So go try that, let me know how it works for you.
It's Enforce.
Your example doesn't really stand up. If a governmental body that controls an area of public land has decided to designate a group or person/s to act as their agent for administering or controlling that area to enforce a set of rules for an activity then enforcement of those rules is not harassment. We're not talking about physically restraining someone. That's another issue. Most government reps don't have the time and/or knowledge to administer less well know activities and would rather have groups who have intimate knowledge of it to handle it for them.
If you truly believe that you can do whatever you like on public land then how about you ride a dirtbike through Ed Levin park. It's public land, isn't that your right?

Hey guys, try fighting for the rights of ALL pilots.

Work with the parks to generate rules like these new rules from our new Ed Levin park permit.

#14 A permittee shall not require, as a condition of flight, paragliding or hang gliding, that an individual first join or become a member of an organization, club or other entity.

#15 A permittee shall not deny access to the park or any location with in the park, shall not deny anyone the ability to access any point of flight or departure point within the park and shall not exclude individuals from using any hang gliding or paragliding location, for any reason, regardless of a persons affiliation or lack of affiliation with permittee or permittee's organization...

These rules will be coming to your public park soon. Try to be nice to each other and share our public parks with all 103 pilots.
#403115
SlopeSkimmer wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:14 am

Hey guys, try fighting for the rights of ALL pilots.

Work with the parks to generate rules like these new rules from our new Ed Levin park permit.

#14 A permittee shall not require, as a condition of flight, paragliding or hang gliding, that an individual first join or become a member of an organization, club or other entity.

#15 A permittee shall not deny access to the park or any location with in the park, shall not deny anyone the ability to access any point of flight or departure point within the park and shall not exclude individuals from using any hang gliding or paragliding location, for any reason, regardless of a persons affiliation or lack of affiliation with permittee or permittee's organization...

These rules will be coming to your public park soon. Try to be nice to each other and share our public parks with all 103 pilots.
That should always be everyone's goal. Instead we've seen too much of some individuals with a "f--- you and your rules I'm going to do whatever benefits me" attitude.
Ed Levin park has always been the site with the most contentious attitudes that I have ever seen in the 27 years I have been flying hang gliders and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Both the park admin and the club have never really enforced all their rules and it's come back around to bite everyone.
#403116
ha ha 😂😂 your funny and completely out of touch with Oregon you can’t control public land. Your Park is different . I’m talking federal property can’t be sold or deny access unless everyone looses access. Do you gold mine or know anything about public land set aside. That’s where we fly its never going to happen while I’m there. I have private LZ’s much better right next to the clubs lZ, now the owner gave me permission to use clubs LZ also, with No insurance. I love to land there just to piss off the powerless jokers. Good luck with you ideas cause it’s all they are.
#403117
dshman wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:32 am
ha ha 😂😂 your funny and completely out of touch with Oregon you can’t control public land. Your Park is different . I’m talking federal property can’t be sold or deny access unless everyone looses access. Do you gold mine or know anything about public land set aside. That’s where we fly its never going to happen while I’m there. I have private LZ’s much better right next to the clubs lZ, now the owner gave me permission to use clubs LZ also, with No insurance. I love to land there just to piss off the powerless jokers. Good luck with you ideas cause it’s all they are.
I don't live in Oregon or in California. Ed Levin is definately not "my " park. It is where I started out flying and I still go back there several times a year. I live in Nevada. There isn't much you can tell me about public lands. We have more of it here than anywhere else.
I do find it interesting that you proudly state your attitude to piss other pilots off instead of working with them. It really tells something about you.
#403119
dshman wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:06 am
It’s more concerning that the visitors using the LZ think they have more interest that the owner. Why would they care if the owner gave me permission not there land.
Not at all. The real concern is that someone who displays such an anti-social attitude could blow it for everyone.
#403120
Paul H wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:40 am
dshman wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:32 am
ha ha 😂😂 your funny and completely out of touch with Oregon you can’t control public land. Your Park is different . I’m talking federal property can’t be sold or deny access unless everyone looses access. Do you gold mine or know anything about public land set aside. That’s where we fly its never going to happen while I’m there. I have private LZ’s much better right next to the clubs lZ, now the owner gave me permission to use clubs LZ also, with No insurance. I love to land there just to piss off the powerless jokers. Good luck with you ideas cause it’s all they are.
I don't live in Oregon or in California. Ed Levin is definately not "my " park. It is where I started out flying and I still go back there several times a year. I live in Nevada. There isn't much you can tell me about public lands. We have more of it here than anywhere else.
I do find it interesting that you proudly state your attitude to piss other pilots off instead of working with them. It really tells something about you.

Dshman, it sounds like you have been through a lot of stuff up there. I feel your pain. When we open sites to multiple organizations we open them to all Americans, both pilots and non-pilots. Sounds crazy but not really, here is what I mean. When the USHPA keeps flying sites on public land available to only USHPA pilots they are violating the rights to everyone who would like to try hang gliding including those who may not have the physical ability to fly by themselves. When I was flying tandem flights at Fort Funston, I took a paraplegic for the flight of his life. I took a person that was partially blind who said he felt he could never fly by himself. I have taken old people and I have taken young people. I remember taking this one girl from Columbia, she didn't speak english but kept saying ,"is beautiful, is beautiful". The selfish pilots at Fort Funston wanted to keep the tandem flying under their own control and put a stop to all that. The USHPA and Tim Herr fought me hard at Ed Levin park and they have come up short on every issue. Tim was no match for the 100's of lawyers that the county of Santa Clara employs. Tim and the USHPA have made the Santa Clara County Parks Department do a buttload of extra work to keep the flying site inclusive and available to ALL pilots. Soon, I will get back to work with the GGNRA and do the same for Fort Funston. When all is said and done, everyone in America will have the opportunity to fly a hang glider in San Francisco. Until then, come fly with me at Ed Levin Park. Bring your non-pilots friends for a free lesson or a free tandem flight with Big Air Hang Gliding!
#403121
FlyingNinja wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:52 pm
Well there ya go mike.. Opening your mouth and making up lies before you have the facts.. (Not surprised at all) after all your backstabbing and derogatory remarks towards me and the Club , don't expect me to be nice to you, you don't deserve it.

Kindly mind your buisinss and leave me out of your ridiculous crusade.. End quote.

Let's see, he states you're mean. As evidence, he provides you with a quote where you call pilots that don't want to join your club "selfish assholes." Seems he's got evidence. But how's this for a selfish asshole. Imagine that you're the president of a very small club in one of the nation's most visible cities, say San Fransisco. And say the National Park Service and it's representative leases VERY valuable real estate to that club, right on the beach by a fantastic hang gliding area for a fraction of what it's worth to the taxpayers. Under three buck a foot PER YEAR! Let's say that beach side property is worth $7 per foot per month. Huh. Sounds like a selfish asshole is robbing the taxpayers for the benifit of a few hundred people. Now say that the few hundred people are controlled by less than a dozen. How many voting club members in your club, Rob? Then let's imagine that the club kicks out all of the PG pilots from the site, and insists that any tax paying citizen who has every RIGHT to use that public land can't fly there unless they pay ransom to two private clubs controling public land. Rob, I am so close to writing letters to the editors in SF and seeing what kind of stink I can raise just to get citizens to see what you guys have set up on public property. The people at large--especially in sanfransisco, hate the overly entitled. The only thing that stops me from starting to bring public awareness of what you are doing is twofold--it's not fair to punish the NICE people who fly there by getting it shut down, and two, you may be smart enough to figure out that inclusive clubs get more members than mean spirited punative ones. We will see. Should I publish a draft letter to the editor here? Should I start contacting local news services and tell them what a sweetheart deal you have at the taxpayers expense? Should I try to get every pissed of pilot on the west coast out to mass fly Funston while you guys sputter? Hey. I'm retired. I've got plenty of time. Or would you like to open a dialogue with pilots who don't feel the need to join a club whose president calls people trying to open up flying sites "selfish assholes?"

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