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User avatar
By red
#401616
AlC wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:12 pm
Recording Votes = red herring (at least for the past 4 years).
Look at the minutes (they are available on the website to all members). If your RD was present and isn't listed otherwise, they voted with the majority.
Alan
Alan,

This is not a "red herring," it is the point at which I lost a lot of respect for the actions of USHPA. There was no posted record that I could challenge any RD on, about issues they may have supported or opposed. It is very much related to serious USHPA issues like land use, insurance, and other actions taken (or not) by "our" organization. The explanation of "inconvenience" for our RDs is not a valid reason to deny public accountability to the membership for these issues, which affect every member. It makes the BOD appear to be secretive, elitist, and beyond any real accountability to the member pilots. Is this what we want?

Come back and say YES or NO here: Can I see how my RD has voted on past issues?

That posting of voting records would not fix everything immediately, of course, but it would give pilots a valid basis to decide on their serving RD, and whether that person truly represents the pilots in their region.
User avatar
By red
#401636
AlC wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:38 pm
Red:
Go look at the minutes. Unanimous tells you exactly how they voted.
Alan
Alan,

BS! Tell me why there is no RD voting record that I can access from "our" HG/PG club!

Any RD can say they abstained from any one vote, or missed the vote due to absence, or even a bathroom break. I really want a written record that can be accessed by members. Canada's HG/PG club can do it, so why can't the USA club?
Look here:
https://www.hpac.ca/pub/?pid=202

It is exactly the resistance to giving the USA membership the RD voting records that makes anything coming from the BOD meetings into a suspicious event. What you propose (every member tracking every RD vote, and sometimes only by inference) is ridiculous, in the true sense of the word.

Post a voting record, for each RD in the meetings. Anybody who is consistently absent from the voting should not be an RD, plain and simple. Same goes for those who vote against what their Region would want.
User avatar
By AlC
#401665
Red:

I agree that you should be able to see how your RD voted. I just happen to think that the current minutes successfully accomplish that. The Canadian version is certainly nicer, but they have a tiny 7-member board meeting on-line. Our 27-member board is a lot less amenable to on-line meetings (conference calls with more than 6 or 7 people trying to participate are less than productive). The USHPA board also meets in different locations across the country. Does it add any value to show "Voted For" followed by 27 names (like the Canadian version) versus "Passed Unanimously" as the current minutes already do? It's the same information and tells you just as much about your RD. Check the minutes. It's all right there.

I think you should be able to see how your RD voted, in fact I think you already can.

- Alan
By blindrodie
#401672
Why the hell can't people just call or write to their RD and ask!? Is that so difficult? Then you can b----/admire all you want online about the no reply or reply. I don't get it...

8)
User avatar
By Underdog
#401695
blindrodie wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:33 am
Why the hell can't people just call or write to their RD and ask!? Is that so difficult? Then you can b----/admire all you want online about the no reply or reply. I don't get it...

8)
Why the ---- should we have to call or write, it should all be there in black and white.
User avatar
By red
#401697
blindrodie wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:33 am
Why the hell can't people just call or write to their RD and ask!? Is that so difficult? Then you can b----/admire all you want online about the no reply or reply. I don't get it...
Blindrodie,

Okay, then back to the original issue. I asked an RD directly how he had voted on a certain issue. Knowing my choice on that issue, he told me that he had voted against it, the same as I would have. A member who was there watching the vote told me later, the voting was unanimous, in favor of the measure that I opposed. The RD just lied straight to my face. THIS is why we need a record of RD voting posted.

I would not re-elect that RD, because he is voting for interests that are not what his region would want. The same goes for RDs who avoid voting on important issues. I want to see the voting record, for any USHPA issues.
User avatar
By mgforbes
#401698
Underdog wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:37 pm
Why the ---- should we have to call or write, it should all be there in black and white.
And it IS. Read the minutes. It shows who was present and how the votes went. We don't do a roll call vote for every single decision. Most are unanimous. When a vote is contentious, which is not often, we might do a show of hands. If there are just a few directors opposed, we'll record those who opposed the motion. If it's a particularly sensitive topic, any director can call for a roll-call vote on the topic. That's also rare. But I've done that myself on significant issues where I felt it was important to have everyone's name written down explicitly, particularly for major policy changes or decisions.

Have you actually read the minutes of the last BOD meeting? Or those previous? They can be found right here:
https://www.ushpa.org/page/board-of-dir ... -materials

Committee actions become the actions of the board upon approval of the committee report in general session. Within committees, voting is at the discretion of the chair. In my committees, I generally let anyone in the room express an opinion, and anyone on the board vote. Usually we arrive at a consensus, so a vote is as simple as "everybody ok with this as written?" and a bunch of nods all around. Our committee report, if it changes an SOP or otherwise requires official action, then gets approved at the general session, possibly with editing and revision.

MGF
User avatar
By mgforbes
#401699
red wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:08 pm
A member who was there watching the vote told me later, the voting was unanimous, in favor of the measure that I opposed. The RD just lied straight to my face.

Be specific, then. Which topic was voted on, when, and who lied to you? If it was in the last 18 years, I was there and I can go look in the minutes to refresh my memory. Surely you recall this, since it's so important to you.

It's entirely possible that the director in question voted against some proposal in committee, came out on the losing side of the vote, and then voted to approve the overall committee report in general session. That's how compromise works in a representative body. There are times when I've disagreed with some portion of a committee report, but the overall board consensus approves of it. If it's not "a hill to die on" (Mitch Shipley's phrase) then I'm not going to hold up approval over some relatively small detail. If I feel strongly about it and think the board is really heading in the wrong direction, then sure...I'll insist on voting "no" and ask that vote to be recorded in the minutes. It rarely gets to that stage, because we manage to hash this stuff out in committee beforehand and either reach a consensus, or table it for further work.

MGF
User avatar
By red
#401701
AlC wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:57 pm
Red:
I agree that you should be able to see how your RD voted. The Canadian version is certainly nicer
I think you should be able to see how your RD voted, in fact I think you already can.
- Alan
Alan,

Are you not a Regional Director, AND the Vice President of USHPA?

I find it odd that you and Rebardan are both RDs, and vocally oppose having a public record of your voting. Just do the thing Canadian style (you might want to use the easy video recording process that YOU and the BOD have outlawed at the BOD meetings). I see no valid reason to avoid posting the voting records of the RDs, except to have no accountability to members for the RD voting. I (and probably others) want to see who voted, who did not vote, and which way they voted, for every issue addressed by the BOD.

"Unanimous" does not tell people who skipped the vote by their total absence, leaving the meeting before the vote, or abstaining.
User avatar
By AlC
#401702
Red:

I've never opposed a public record of my votes. I am an RD and posted my own record of votes for years. Not one member has ever asked how I voted on anything (though I'd be glad to share).

What easy video method do you mean? The small Canadian board (7) seems to meet on-line. That's not very practical for a 27 member board. Is there some quick, easy and not costly method you would like to propose? The competition is "All in favor say aye; any opposed; any abstentions". (As a note, if members abstain the vote is not recorded as unanimous).

The existing minutes are clear, quick and simple. These are important attributes when you are bringing in volunteers for 2 days of meetings. Come up with something better and I'd be glad to take it forward.

Like I said at the top. The minutes already tell you how your RD has voted. Call me this weekend and we can go through some minutes. They really are quite thorough. Remember that we agree you should be able to see how your RD voted.

- Alan
User avatar
By red
#401720
AlC wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:20 am
Red:
I've never opposed a public record of my votes. I am an RD and posted my own record of votes for years. Not one member has ever asked how I voted on anything (though I'd be glad to share).

What easy video method do you mean?
- Alan
Alan,

The BOD voted unanimously against using any recording equipment at BOD meetings, and NOW you ask me this?

Set up a GoPro camera (or a smart phone) at the head of the table, or anywhere that all BOD members can be seen clearly. A show of hands, for and against any issue, is all it takes. The taker of the minutes (who should know who is who) can sort out who voted for what, at their convenience later. This method will NOT slow down the BOD meetings, and the resulting written record will be clear, and easy to access. Ideally, it should be fairly similar to the posted Canada HG/PG club minutes.

At the Fall 2017 meeting, there was a vote on holding the Fall 2018 meeting in Florida, led by Martin Palmaz. Please tell me how the Region 4 RDs voted, on the Florida/Colorado site choice. Thank you.
I'll wait right here . . .

The Minutes that you now publish are useless for tracking the RD voting records, as the BOD desires, per the "unanimous" vote of the BOD.
User avatar
By AlC
#401724
Red:

I've only been on the BOD 4 years. How long ago was this recording vote? More recently we have looked at whether the meeting could be streamed so more members could participate. Times may have changed a tad since whenever that was...

Sorry to pooh pooh your idea, but a smartphone or GoPro is never going to pick up the voting and I would pity the poor (volunteer) Secretary who had to watch 10 hours of meeting to try and see around people to catch the voting. If we could get the streaming thing working and had the video available to members for awhile, would that meet your goals? (No change in minutes, but members could watch the video for X months)?

You've pointed to the trivial issue of where to hold the next meeting as the example of not having complete enough minutes? Isn't there a single substantive topic to point to?

Work with me here. You have a BOD member who is willing to listen but is frankly skeptical that there is a significant improvement to be made. The minutes as they exist today seem quite complete and thorough. And remember, this is all volunteer effort. Something that is 'better', as fast, and not expensive would be interesting and in keeping with positions I have brought forward in the past.

- Alan
User avatar
By red
#401725
AlC wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:48 pm
Red:
How long ago was this recording vote?
Ask Mark Forbes, he told me about it.
Sorry to pooh pooh your idea, but a smartphone or GoPro is never going to pick up the voting and I would pity the poor (volunteer) Secretary who had to watch 10 hours of meeting to try and see around people to catch the voting.
You only turn on the video camera for a vote, one minute per vote, not ten hours. Sheesh.
If we could get the streaming thing working and had the video available to members for awhile, would that meet your goals? (No change in minutes, but members could watch the video for X months)?
Nope, not at all! Nobody has time to watch "ten hours" of streaming video. Publish the votes by each RD in the Minutes, collected in any way you may wish. Simple as that.
You've pointed to the trivial issue of where to hold the next meeting as the example of not having complete enough minutes? Isn't there a single substantive topic to point to?
This is not a trivial issue to me! What gives you the right to dictate what is important to me? Or to anybody? Publish the RD voting record!

You can give every RD a sheet of printer paper, numbered one to fifteen (if there are to be fifteen votes) on the page. Each RD marks each item Yea or Nay, for each issue, to record their vote. Anybody who can not do that at a meeting probably has no business being there in the first place. That should not slow things down too much. I don't care how you record the voting, just be accurate and complete.

Have the BOD pass this issue: If there is no complete record of RD voting on an issue, then the issue is unresolved. Try again next time.

You say I can get the voting record from the minutes, and I just proved that nobody can do that. If the issue got a vote by the BOD, then it MUST BE an important issue.
Work with me here. You have a BOD member who is willing to listen but is frankly skeptical that there is a significant improvement to be made. The minutes as they exist today seem quite complete and thorough.
No, the minutes are NOT complete, NOR thorough. The minutes are sketchy, at best, where RD votes are concerned.
And remember, this is all volunteer effort. Something that is 'better', as fast, and not expensive would be interesting and in keeping with positions I have brought forward in the past.
- Alan
Hard to believe that nobody in California can find or write up a voting program of some sort. That way would be fast, accurate, easy, and maybe Open Source (free).

Please publish the RD voting record in the Minutes. We need to see if our RDs vote for their region's interests, or maybe something else. "If everybody agrees, then somebody is not thinking."
.
User avatar
By AlC
#401738
I think the USHPA BOD is evolving. The most recent example is the outreach today on proposed changes. When I joined the board, committees met the first day and formulated proposals that the board voted on the next. There had already been an effort to get the agenda items out to the membership before the meeting; but there was usually no input on specific proposals (with some notable exceptions) as they moved from committee to board overnight.

Today's member e-mail reflects a determined effort to request input:
Review Proposed SOP Changes

Maybe you would like to help?

- Alan
User avatar
By red
#401739
AlC wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:33 am
I think the USHPA BOD is evolving. The most recent example is the outreach today on proposed changes. When I joined the board, committees met the first day and formulated proposals that the board voted on the next. There had already been an effort to get the agenda items out to the membership before the meeting; but there was usually no input on specific proposals (with some notable exceptions) as they moved from committee to board overnight.
Today's member e-mail reflects a determined effort to request input:
Review Proposed SOP Changes
Maybe you would like to help?
- Alan
Alan,

I'd really like to help, which is why a USHPA meeting location is not "trivial" to me. Unfortunately, USHPA has a very poor reputation about accepting "help" from non-commercial members in the past. You are welcome here; the pilots have lots of good ideas for you (some are even practical!). :lol: If you catch any flak, do not take it personally; USHPA has a long history of evasions and arrogance to members in the past.

A lot of members are quite ready to leave USHPA now, but you can fix all of that with some real discussion, open voting records, and (heaven forbid!) an occasional apology when warranted, from now on. Publishing proposed BOD issues (before the meetings) can be a good first step.

So, let's see how one good idea flies: Publish the RD voting records from the meetings, collected in any way you like, as long as it is accurate. I will not be the only USHPA member watching for results here.

The pilot membership can not assess their RDs unless we know how they voted. The minutes (as noted) are clearly proven to be unclear and incomplete, as is, for RD voting. I have had an RD lie straight to my face, so asking them how they voted is not a valid approach, and they do not have time to answer every pilot on every issue, anyway. You need membership that will be growing, not leaving at every possible opportunity. You can fix this problem, but Status Quo will not help.
User avatar
By BubbleBoy
#401740
All these years and the BOD members are STILL dancing around playing games (as you see right here) about this 'recording the vote" issue.

Kinda makes you think don't it.

JB

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