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By Willmrx
#400787

New hang 4 landing a topless at McClure!!! What could he have done different?
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By Lucky_Chevy
#400788
Sounds like the narrator nailed the main problem. The setup was too high for a toppless glider. So if the pilot knew he was high he could have:
1. Completed another pass or two along the hill.
2. Deployed a drogue chute if he had one.
3. Dragged his feet.

I'm not personally familiar with this site but it looks like it may not be the best choice for transitioning to a high performance wing since going long is not an option.
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By AIRTHUG
#400863
Flown a glider more appropriate for his skill and judgement? Not launched/landed mid-day when it's thermic? Not flown such a thermic site... with an unforgiving LZ? Long straight approach so he would at least realize he's F*** earlier? I don't love it- but letting the VG all the way off and slowing down to a mush can really significantly steepen glide slope (and the risk of performing that might have been less than the guaranteed consequences of overshooting?). Landed into the wind? (am I seeing that right?) Brought a spare pair of underwear? Picked the biggest softest fluffiest looking bush and performed a "tree landing" into it rather than continuing to fly OVER an LZ he obviously wasn't going to be able to land in?
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By DMarley
#400866
Take a look at the comments for the vid on YT. Sounds like this pilot is perhaps socially handicapped. But that doesn't matter here.
I see the pilot doing S turns rather than eight's in order to bleed off elevation, if he even realized that he was too high.
Really? He's an H-4? The big question is who gave him that new rating upgrade, and for what reason? Perhaps it was an attempt to make his demise look like suicide? Or insistent badgering from the pilot?
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#400867
That's easily obtainable information...

On the other hand, everyone makes mistakes- and while I do judge myself as only as good as my last flight, last landing... or worst landing, even if it wasn't my last flight... not everyone holds themselves to the same hard criticism. And I sure wouldn't like being told or expected to hold myself to whatever their standards may be, so I try not to do the same to others...

I also can't totally defend this guy, because this isn't one mistake- it's a string of pretty egregious errors for the site/conditions/equipment, and it does not appear he was even aware until way too late. Or if he was aware, he kept his cool SO well that he didn't react at all (including not doing anything to remedy his situation!) :rofl:
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User avatar
By DMarley
#400868
Willmrx wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:52 pm
New hang 4 landing a topless at McClure!....
Looking at all his credentials, he's certainly not a new H4 like Willmrx thought (looks like it though), but it does look like Ted just had a series of brain farts all rolled up into one big nasty snowball. It could happen I suppose. Would be informative to know his state of mind before the flight.
I wonder if that really was his first time driving a topless, or perhaps he forgot to get into an aggressive state of mind prior to his approach.
From the camera's perspective it would appear Ryan is correct.
By bickford frederick
#400870
I don't know what those ratings are about.

S-turns or figure-8's aren't really ideal. An aircraft approach (DBF) is better.

If the air is active you can end up losing airspeed with a drogue chute and easily crash. The wind is calm in the video.

I've seen lots of crashes here, but this particular one is a new version to see.

I'm glad I wasn't there.
By blindrodie
#400872
I've seen lots of crashes here, but this particular one is a new version to see.
Pizza run...... :twisted:

8)
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#400881
PA and VA are the ham radio authorizations... one for Portable units, one for Vehicle mounted units (not sure why they require separate authorizations). Technically there is... or was... a USHPA SOP somewhere that says passing the USHPA written test for those authorizations is required to operate a radio on the USHPA (business band I think?) frequencies. It's otherwise illegal per the FCC to use those channels, which is why most radios need to be "bumped" in order to transmit on the USHPA freqs.

Regarding the comment above about S's and 8's vs Downwind Base Final (DBF) aka "aircraft approach" - anyone, and I mean ANYONE that feels they can say one is better over the other is basically making a statement of their ignorance. (Sorry Fred)

Without going to far down that rabbit hole- each of those approach types have pro's and con's, strengths and weaknesses, and as such each has their own set of circumstances where one is "better"... but a blanket statement applied to all pilots, all conditions, all LZ's... no sir. And I don't really care if someone on the internet is wrong, but a statement like that could discourage impressionable pilots away from one type of approach, and into using the other... in situations where they'd be safer and better suited with the shamed approach.

And any discussion about 8's vs DBF wouldn't be complete without encouraging all pilots to get good at one style of approach, and then get good at the other. Repetition is instrumental to perfecting anything, so if you perform a different approach every landing it's near impossible to dial in any kind of accuracy or perfection of execution. If you instead generally do 8's *or* a DBF (excluding specific cases where it's clearly better to do the other), you'll get much better at planning out the approach, adjusting as needed to stay on target where you want to touch down (because everyone is picking a SPOT to aim for, rather than just flying into a general viscinity, right??? :wink: ). Doing it the same every time also includes when and how you do your transition- the hands from base bar to uprights, and the body posture from prone to upright. Those two things get labeled as the "transition", but they don't HAVE to happen at the same time as eachother. BUT- doing them the same way, at the same point in the approach every time.... leads to improved precision! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
User avatar
By NMERider
#400882
Here's a little background to put this thread into context....
viewtopic.php?p=385403#p385403
noman3 wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:07 pm
as a toilet vandal myself, maybe you might want to take a rare look at yourselves and maybe reflect a little on your actions.You pissed somebody off,now think real hard and you might be able to stop this kind of action if you address the problem that caused this tragedy to human kind.Ted hutz brought a toilet to launch and expected the club to pay for it with no vote.Then the stupid son of a b**** goes over to blm land and starts hacking away on the vegetation with no permit and no vote.Ken muscio and his buddy sat there and let this turd of a person jeopardize our site.I got mad that the good ol boy club just overrides any good sense and at any time they could jeopardize our site that we worked so hard to save.

nobody ever asked why i filled the toilet on launch with rocks.I owned up to my actions but them bunch of cowards did not own up to their actions.Now look at mcclure its a fuckin ghost town.Beware ted hutz he is a piece of trash that will cause your club nothing but trouble.The mother load skyriders keep trying to shut me up and they keep trying to make me quit posting about this because they want this to just disappear.Well its not going to disappear or go away until the right thing is done.These bunch of pricks even sent letters off trying to get my rating pulled all because of why? because i care about our site! Your going to punish me because i cared about mcclure well then fuk you!

Hangliding is a great sport until someone like ted comes around,fuk the skyriders for backing him and leaving me out in the cold.I had friendships of over 15 years there and now i have none because of ted.I guess i should thank ted on one level,at least i found out who my real friends are.

the moral of this story is,if you find your shitter full of rocks, foam or poison oak you might want to reflect a little and maybe change your actions because you might be a prick and not even know it.
Better yet--read the whole thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=34204
User avatar
By NMERider
#400883
And while we're at it, according to the US DOJ, the pilot in the video is a convicted felon who by his own admission committed the crime of bid rigging in violation of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1 https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-docume ... 6/download
So it's understandable that certain pilots are seriously pissed at this pilot while others are concerned about being sued by him. In other words this thread has little to do with landing technique and a lot to do with the kind of thing that is killing this sport and not merely at Lake McClure but really it's been happening many places and for a long period of time. The pettiness, spite, animosity and flat out hatreds among pilots within this sport is nothing new but the sport has effectively been crushed nearly out of existence by these factors.

When non-pilots ask me why hang gliding is nearly extinct I cite one of the major undermining factors for what it is: Assholism--plain and simple. It isn't new but it is a virus and it's toxic.
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By AIRTHUG
#400884
NMERider wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:42 pm
In other words this thread has little to do with landing technique and a lot to do with the kind of thing that is killing this sport
Dude- are we reading the same thread? You seem to know a whole lot more about the pilot than the rest of us that have posted here... but starting with the first post "what could he have done different?"... it seems very much to be a discussion about landing technique. At least until the above soap box interlude :wtf:

Not saying your message doesn't have merit... but IMO it's left field for sure on this thread, which WAS very much about landing technique. Hopefully it'll continue that way after this response :thumbsup: :popcorn:
User avatar
By NMERider
#400885
AIRTHUG wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:43 pm
....Dude- are we reading the same thread? You seem to know a whole lot more about the pilot than the rest of us that have posted here...
The hint is in the OP where Will writes, "New hang 4 landing a topless ".
Ted has been an H4 since 1996. Not sure I'd call that "new".
I thought I'd place this thread into context. It's long overdue.

OTOH, if you want to discuss this landing as if it was an unknown pilot whose rating and experience were unknown and some unfamiliar site then by all means have at it. Frankly, there are hundreds and hundreds of videos on YouTube and elsewhere that show similar and worse landing execution errors but this particular video was selected and the information posted about the pilot is erroneous. But I digress.

Anyhow, ignoring the surrounding historical facts the OP does ask the question about what the pilot could have done different. I think the answer being sought is quite simple. This pilot should either quit the sport or fly a glider better suited such as Gecko 155, Sport 2 155, Falcon 4 195, Malibu 2 188, Fun 2, Freedom 170, etc., etc.

I know a lot of guys his age and mine who own a single surface wing for our increasingly frequent off-days but still have a topless glider for days when we are in shape to handle it. Ted was lucky. This could have easily been the deal breaker landing. I know a lot of pilots from mid-50s to 60s who had one too many like this but didn't fare so well and have now sold all their gear and have quit the sport. It's an inherently unforgiving sport that ratchets up the consequences with each passing year. There comes a point where it's time to step back and fly a floater and land on pneumatic wheels. There comes another point where it's just plain time to sell all the gear and walk away. I know dozens and dozens of these stories. It needs to be addressed along with the other ugly factors I have elucidated above.

The sport is choking and sputtering. I hope it can find its breath.
By bickford frederick
#400893
I don't think I ever saw KM do anything other than aircraft approach. He flew a lot.
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By Takeo77
#400899
Without getting into any tangents, his local nickname is "Thud", i.e. the sound he makes when he hits the ground. I don't know much about his other exploits but he's been a nice enough guy to me personally.
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By Skyvine
#400912
NMERider wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:11 pm
Ted was lucky. This could have easily been the deal breaker landing. I know a lot of pilots from mid-50s to 60s who had one too many like this but didn't fare so well and have now sold all their gear and have quit the sport.
So true. I have watched a number of local pilots cruise into their 50's without thinking much about it, not getting out flying as much anymore, falling victim to the internal dialogue of "I won't be seen as the same awesome pilot I used to be if I don't fly the latest topless comp wing," and then they blow a launch or landing. The result is a glider in the garage that needs repair, and a pilot who "retires" before they needed to. Sure, there are and always will be pilots who scare the crap out of us on a regular basis, and we need to find ways to help them stay alive (even asking them to quit?), but let's do what we can to help the rest keep flying safely.

Ted, in the video above, came back to flying after taking some years off. In hindsight, he probably should have stayed with his king-posted glider, but the right conversation with him apparently didn't happen. Maybe it was the real estate conspiracy crime that kept him away from flying? Regardless, Ted has given countless hours and dollars in support of the local flying site to improve the launch, the LZ, and the road up. He has definitely rubbed some people the wrong way in the process (see old thread referenced above), which may have contributed to some current attitudes here, but my own limited experience with him has always been positive.

When we disagree with others, it's easy to write them off, spread dirt, piss on their existence, and hope they just go away, but the real challenge comes in stepping up to help anyone who goes out of their way to support our dwindling sport. A wise person once told me that to influence someone else we must first find something positive to hold in our minds about them, and then to be sure we don't make them appear bad, wrong, or stupid.
User avatar
By NMERider
#400915
Skyvine wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:37 pm
....So true. I have watched a number of local pilots cruise into their 50's without thinking much about it, not getting out flying as much anymore, falling victim to the internal dialogue of "I won't be seen as the same awesome pilot I used to be if I don't fly the latest topless comp wing," and then they blow a launch or landing. The result is a glider in the garage that needs repair, and a pilot who "retires" before they needed to. Sure, there are and always will be pilots who scare the crap out of us on a regular basis, and we need to find ways to help them stay alive (even asking them to quit?), but let's do what we can to help the rest keep flying safely....
It's funny and not in a comical way that we have this nifty 390' high launch at Andy Jackson Airpark with a cart that hold two assembled gliders on it and allows for rapid turnarounds for plenty of launch and pattern landing practice. Yet, almost nobody uses it. The last pilot who asked me about it hasn't flown since he crashed at one of our shitty SoCal bailouts and mid-way through the conversation just walked away in distraction. I've lost count of the other pilots who expressed a desire to improve their L & Ls yet never followed up. I've even said to call or write to me any time and I'll join you. And again, no follow-up or follow-through. I even tell people that it's possible to bench up from the 390' launch and fly away. Still, no dice. I have to admit that time to fly is in short supply and if it's soarable pilots will gravitate to the mountain and get in a couple of hours rather than increase their margins. Anyone want to go use the Big O Loop? Bueller?
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