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#398764
I will be training on the glider I will buy. I will be hooking in at 260lbs without gear.

Any advantages or warnings? I get that the Freedom is supposed to be slightly sportier but as of now that doesn't mean much to me.
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By AIRTHUG
#398777
Falcon is lighter, easier (as in, less effort and less skill required)... and therefore safer for a newer pilot. It's also more forgiving, so if you make a mistake during launch or landing, you'll have better odds of "getting away with it" versus the alternative :shock:

In hang gliding there's this funny thing, where "high performance" really only refers to GLIDE performance... which is how far the glider moves forward for every foot it descends through the air. So a Falcon might have, say, an 8:1 glide... and the "highest performance" flex wing might be approaching 20:1 at best. And I'm sort of guessing at the numbers, because hang glider manufacturers don't have access to wind tunnels, and don't like to publish numbers because obtaining concrete reliable flight data in the "real world" there's just too many variables...

Here's the funniest part- I have a Falcon, and a T2C with every option (high performance racing glider)... the Falcon flies slower, with makes soaring a lot easier... so in terms of soaring performance, most days the Falcon could easily be called higher performance than the T2C. Launching and landing is way easier, and requires a lot less running (launch) and runway (landing)... so again the Falcon could be considered much higher performance. The Falcon is much lighter weight than my T2C... and the Falcon sets up and breaks down a LOT faster, often leading to more airtime for me when I choose that wing for the day's flying... so again, the Falcon is higher performance there.

Really... it's just GLIDE performance... so if you're not concerned with trying to fly from A to B quickly, or losing the least possible amount of altitude while doing it... then a so-called "higher performance" glider is, well, NOT higher performance at all.

Disclaimer here is that I hate the Freedom. Not that it isn't a fine glider- I just think the premise is *STUPID*. It takes all of the compromises we accept in a higher performing (better gliding) glider, and incorporates them into a single-surface glider that will always be significantly handicapped in glide performance. It might go a little better than a Falcon at higher speeds, but no one's been able to PROVE that. And if it does, it certainly aint a big difference. And to gain that slightly better glide (assuming it does what they say it does), the owners have to pay more money, put more battens in and out every time they fly it, put curved tips in and out, and deal with a heavier glider. It's less yaw-damped, and less roll-stable than the Falcon. Can't speak for pitch stability because it's not certified. (www.hgma.net) So yea... I get that people like them, and I agree they look slick. But not so slick that I'd pay more, to work harder and fly less :lol: :crazy: If I want performance, and I'm willing to spend more money, and spend more time setting up, I'd buy a Sport 2. I find them easier to fly VG off, lighter or comparable weight, and less expensive than the "full race" Freedom... and no one argues the Sport 2 glides better than the Freedom when you pull the VG tight. Sorry for the little sidebar... but man, I just do not get it!
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By DMarley
#398778
My mentor suggested I find something that was previously owned with little wear and tear. They are out there, you just have to look. The Freedom 190 is almost a needle in the haystack search. Not many to be found. The tandem Falcon is relatively easy to find. He also suggested if I couldn't find a Freedom, a Falcon would do just fine, so I found a nice, nearly-new Falcon 3 195 for less than half-price of a new Falcon 4. The deals are out there. (For reference, I weigh around 225 lbs in excellent physical shape, clothed)
However, if you are still planning to train at LMFP, you will not need to purchase a glider to train on. They have the big Wills Wing Alpha 210 that should be good for your weight (150-280 lbs hook-in weight).

Don't get suckered into purchasing your equipment before you've had some real air-time lessons. There are fly-by night instructors who will tell you that you need to purchase your own equipment before you receive lessons. Don't listen to that BS, unless a local mentor has offered to teach you for a very reasonable charge. A reputable school's glider is designed to be repaired quickly and inexpensively, unlike the same model glider that you could purchase, especially the WW Alpha and Falcon models. The school-version downtubes and control bar are very easily replaceable and inexpensive. You could easily severely bend or break a downtube or worse, and it will be much more expensive if it is your glider.
If you are not already in super-great shape at 260 lbs, you may want to find a way to loose some of those excess ballast pounds if you can before embarking on your lessons. Just that can make a big difference in your training and flying.

I would never suggest any new student to sacrifice their own glider to learn on. Especially the first full week of lessons when you are trying to learn to land. I have seen a few downtubes get thrown in the trash can from students' landing faux pas. It can happen to the best students, too. Rent your equipment if you have to, but don't go out before your lessons and purchase a glider/harness combo because someone tells you that you are required to do so.

I would be very surprised to hear that LMFP has asked you to purchase your own equipment before your lessons. Are you still thinking of training at LMFP?

When purchasing previously owned gear, be sure you get some kind of approval and perhaps an inspection of that specific gear from a mentor or a well-experienced HG pilot.
By Carl
#398799
Mikey
I waited until it was suggested to get my glider,which allows plenty of time to research what's available for new pilots Hang 2
I found that in the want ads there's an abundance of WW falcons for sale and any Freedoms would sell immediately
What I heard is that Freedom owners will almost never want to part with that glider,to me that meant something

Airthug how long did you fly yours before you became a Freedom hater?
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By DAVE 858
#398800
Why not a Falcon 195?
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By waltspoint
#398803
First off, use the school's training glider as long as reasonably possible. At least until you're a solid H1.

I'm not so familiar with the Falcon 225 & Freedom 190, but I've owned a Falcon 195 and Freedom 170 (and a lot of other gliders). IMHO Falcon 195 is a better first glider than a Freedom 170, because it is lighter, more forgiving during launch & landing. Its only drawback is that the Freedom handles wind a bit better, but as a new pilot you won't be flying on windy days for a while.

If you become a solid H2 with the school equipment, then the Freedom is worth considering. It's a matter of taste whether you want a more care-free glider or a tad more performance. Care-free means safety and less fear, performance means a greater range of flying conditions and flying sites.

For an experienced pilot wanting a single surface glider, I like the Freedom. A bit crisper handling, a bit better glide/penetration/sink, but still feels like a single-surface. Other flyers might prefer the Falcon for its lack of demandingness, if that's a word. So personal goals and preferences.

I don't hate the Freedom, I like mine a lot. But it is sort of a design for a niche. If one is an H3 stepping up from a Falcon and planning to own just one glider, then a Sport2 will give you more in most flying conditions. As someone with a performance glider as well, having the Freedom is a nice spare glider. A confident and assertive H2 can also make good use of a Freedom.
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By DAVE 858
#398807
I think the glide performance between a freedom & equally sized falcon is negligible difference. They are both good wings & set up fast & fly well.

I don't know if one is more forgivable than the other. Im not even sure what the word forgivable means when it comes to flying. I assume it means that the glider is less likely to kill you if you make some mistake. So here's a question, why would you fly with a wing that allows you to continue to make mistakes & get away with it due to its alleged forgivableness?

Blowing your launch or stalling in a turn & crashing are going to have serious consequences no matter what glider you are flying. The speed at which these situations happen & develop are increased in higher performing gliders, which is why we don't recommend a T2C as first glider.

The freedom vs the falcon is apples & oranges & really comes down to personal preference. I fly a Freedom 190. I keep it for glass off & the dunes at the coast. A falcon is a bit lighter, but as far as performance or one glider being more forgiving than the other, its a bunch of hogwash. The differences are so subtle its barely noticeable.
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By DMarley
#398810
I have heard from several sources that a Falcon is one of the easiest and best gliders to learn and advance in aerotowing. I've also been told that the Freedom is not so nice on aerotow. A few other newer pilots to aerotowing who flew the Horizons also warned me off of the NW Horizon for that same reasoning, nearly all wishing they had a Falcon for aerotowing.

Anybody have opinions in this regard?
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By waltspoint
#398812
I haven't done aerotow with my Freedom, but on a winch it tows fine in my opinion. I have mine set to the middle crossbar tightness, so perhaps at the loose setting it wanders more. I hook in about 220 on a 170.
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By skysurfer
#398813
DMarley wrote: They have the big Wills Wing Alpha 210 that should be good for your weight (150-280 lbs hook-in weight).

I would be very surprised to hear that LMFP has asked you to purchase your own equipment before your lessons. Are you still thinking of training at LMFP?
I was at Lookout when the alpha showed up at the hill and one of the first new students to fly it but being new and I didn't spend alot of time on it so can't give a fair assessment (that was also about 4 years ago). Ended up with a Falcon 195 and have had it on the mountain, towed and at the beach. It's still my go to.

In some circles it seems to be the big joke that going to Lookout you'll have a glider, harness, helmet and chute before you ever get to the hill. It wasn't my experience but somehow that rumor got started.
Austin
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By DAVE 858
#398815
Ive towed twice with the Freedom 190. The glider was rigged with attachments at the tow loops on the harness & another up near the keel king post junction. I found it was very difficult to keep the glider pulled in. However, I do not know if this was due to the design of the glider or how it was rigged. There is another method of towing in which the only attachment points are to the harness. I have not tried this method. From what I understand it is a more advanced method of towing.
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By brian scharp
#398818
DAVE 858 wrote:Ive towed twice with the Freedom 190. The glider was rigged with attachments at the tow loops on the harness & another up near the keel king post junction. I found it was very difficult to keep the glider pulled in. However, I do not know if this was due to the design of the glider or how it was rigged. There is another method of towing in which the only attachment points are to the harness. I have not tried this method. From what I understand it is a more advanced method of towing.
It's my understanding that the upper attachment - two point - can be used to help trim the glider. In your example, moving the attachment on the keel closer to the nose would trim it faster, requiring you to pull in less. One point (harness only) - may pull you further forward, but that is not equivalent with you pulling yourself forward or using the bridle to trim the glider.
Bar position obtainable with two point.
Image
A more typical bar position for one point.
Image

https://www.willswing.com/aerotow-relea ... g-gliders/
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By DMarley
#398823
Regarding one or two point bridles on single-surface gliders, I've been informed from multiple sources that the gliders (SS) have very heavy pitch pressure with single-point ('pro-tow' if you like) while aerotowing, but do fine while surface towing. Some pilots have tried a single point on a SS and reported that they were exhausted by the time they released from the tug.
When new to aerotowing a double surface, it has been suggested that the pilot uses a two-point bridle, then progress to the one-point bridle if the pilot chooses.

The rumors about LMFP requiring a student to purchase equipment before receiving instruction are completely untrue. LMFP provide ALL the equipment that a student will need up until after at least five successful flights off the mountain launch. It's most likely that these rumors are started by competing instructors and schools, or just those who enjoy running off their mouths attempting to sound knowledgeable and sway a potential student away from LMFP.
Just as any other flight park, LMFP ain't perfect, but it's great place to learn to fly HG. A new student has TONS of opportunity to learn from multiple instructors as well as many, many other experienced pilots that hang around talking about flying at this park. If a student has a personality or learning block problem with one instructor, he/she can always turn to another instructor. You'll never get that kind of total immersion and experience at a small, one- or two-man HG school.
One of the best things about LMFP is that on flyable days there are always multiple pilots launching and landing. Lots can be learned just by observation and eavesdropping, and LMFP is full of opportunities to learn. It is truly a flying resort. And I'm not prejudiced at all. :)
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By delta
#398830
I have a bit of time on a freedom 170, and can say pretty confidently that it yaws much more on tow than any other single surface I've flown, which overall makes it tricky for less experienced pilots to handle.
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By TomGalvin
#398855
AIRTHUG wrote: Disclaimer here is that I hate the Freedom.
Have you flown one yet, or are you just doing the arm chair thing?

For the OP, talk to your instructor about the right glider for you.
By mtnwings
#398856
90% of my students buy the Freedom and finish their training on the Freedom. Comments I have heard are: " Why have you made us fly that Falcon, this Freedom is so much easier to fly"
We train on Falcons and Condors but when it is time to buy I want my customers to fly all that are available and choose for them selves what they are more comfortable in. The Falcon when stalled or flown too slow wants to wrap up or spin in, the Freedoms will not do this, they mush and still fly straight and slow.
It is true that the Freedom is very light handling and very responsive . Here is why some pilots feel the Freedom is harder to tow and the opinion of pilots that HAVE NOT FLOWN the Freedom. Most new tow pilots train on the Falcon, a very stiff and stable glider, great for training but not for getting lots of airtime and it will wear you out. These pilot hop into a Freedom for the first time and are all over the place, usually because they have not been versed on the light handling and quick response of the Freedom. Every student of mine that has gone down to Fla to learn to tow exclaim how their Freedom was on rails when they got towed up, this is because they know to fly with their finger tips and not over control. It's more of the pilot not knowing the glider (what does PIO mean?)f Why does the Freedom usually clean up at the single surface comps, which are all tow event? Why do most all professional tow parks now us the 220 Freedom for their tandems? because that are not wearing out the tandem pilots and they can do more tandems without needing a break, they freakin handle sweet and nice.
I was going to respond the Ryans off the wall ramblings but I know that most all of you know he has never flown one and really has no idea what he is talking about, I call him " Trump Voight", or maybe " Voight Trump" either one "all lies" LOL, Love ya Ryan.
And if you ever installed the curved tips on a Freedom you would know how effortless it is.
Come visit my training hill on any given weekend and watch five, Ten and sometimes fifteen new students training on their new Freedoms and and you will see for your selves how sweet these gliders are , I invite you to do this and fly one your self before you spout off with all these untruths and second hand info that you " heard" about the Freedom. The Freedom has been out for five or six years now, I have sold a hundred of them, why are none found for sale? Why is the resale price so high on them if one does show up used? Why is the used Freedom gone in one or two days after being posted for sale? It is the best value period. Next to the Gecko it is the best glider on the market. besides, it looks so cool, all gliders should have curved tips. If you buy a Falcon you will spend all your time wishing you had a Freedom and wondering why that guy with a lot less experience is fo much higher than you. Didn't fly one? then shut up.
BYW, The Freedom if purchased in the stock configuration is , no VG, no Mylar cloth or any of the other options that are available will find the Freedom light, easy to set up, balanced on your shoulders and sweet to fly. The cool thing about the Freedom is that you can buy V.G. ( buy a new glider with out this option?) Why? Add heavy Mylar or race cloth and the glider gets heavier just as the Falcon does when you add heavier cloth. It does have a higher aspect ratio which means more wing span and more performance, a few LBS but who cares when you have a single surface glider that fly along side the Sport but with sweet single surface characteristics, very light pitch pressure and fingertip control. Why do MOST pilot that fly the Freedom land and yell out " I WANT ONE OF THESE!!!" Try one then talk about it, not before you fly one, If you say you didn't like it you are flat out lying. Mr Trump. Also ask yourself, do you want to buy a glider you will out grow in a few months like the Falcon or a glider you will want to own forever?
Greg
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By rockjock729
#398859
My first glider was(is) a Freedom 170. I also fly a Liberty, which is my preferred wing on windy days for penetration in getting back to the field. The Freedom is great for foot launch and handles great in bumpy conditions BUT, when aerotowing it does yaw and you have to learn to ignore it and just keep the wings level. If you choose a Freedom, when you learn to aerotow, start with a fin on the kiel. That mediates the yaw significantly, but the downside is that once you release, it is stiffer turning. Not bad, but it is worth it to learn how to ignore the yaw. I took about 2 months before I started towing without the fin, and was amazed on how well the freedom flew once off off tow. If I ever sell my Freedom, it will be to purchase a new one.
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By DMarley
#398876
mtnwings wrote: I call him " Trump Voight", or maybe " Voight Trump" either one "all lies" ...
... If you say you didn't like it you are flat out lying. Mr Trump.
Greg
If only Greg could read beween the political lines, but it would appear that he can't, or doesn't want to. His post would have been so much better received if he didn't slam these two people but left them out of his message. Highly unprofessional. Guess I won't be casting my shadow on mountain wings site. Too bad.
Don't you have your mountain wings business up for sale? Why?
By MikeyHG
#398877
When it comes to buying vs using one of their gliders it depends on what they have available and weight.

If I need to buy to train, I will get the Freedom. It seems like it offers more and a pilot wouldn't grow out of it as fast as a more docile Falcon.
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By Jason
#398878
TomGalvin wrote:
AIRTHUG wrote: Disclaimer here is that I hate the Freedom.
Have you flown one yet, or are you just doing the arm chair thing?

For the OP, talk to your instructor about the right glider for you.
I was going to ask the same question.

granted i haven't flown a newer falcon, but my experience with the freedom i flew was great, a lovely glider