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#400292
Not sure what the best harness option are but I used to make harnesses for Delta Wings Kites and Gliders their last few months of operation. Looking for a good Phaff Walking foot sewing machine if anyone has one. After flying this way(suprone) for a year now I want to make my own harness. It will incorporate a carbon fiber "butt plate" with a hinge point a few inches forward of the pilots hips. There will be no 'padding" or space for a "reserve" chute under the pilot which will allow me to drop my center of mass a few inches, not have to rotate the Base tube so far downward, which will allow my Base Tube much more ground clearance and I can "roll it in" through much rougher terrain....
The Forward hinge point is going to allow a smooth transition as we run like SCotty mentioned in the vid....but honestly...the Gin Genie Race I am using is like soooooo sweet...and aleady does about 90 % of what we need a suprone harness to do almost perfectly.....It is so comfy I might have to install a "mini-Bar" for the traditional Mid-flight cocktail(minus the stewardess of course)
User avatar
By Nicos
#400298
dbotos wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:11 pm
So here are my questions:

4) Launching and landing. Watching some more videos, it looks like people are launching from behind the risers so they can just sit back into flying position once airborne. For a foot landing with flare, does it generally work better to stay behind the risers or get up in front of them? If the latter, when is generally a good time to make the transition from behind to in front of the risers?
:ditto:

Having not flown supine yet, I'm also very interested in this question...
User avatar
By dbotos
#400301
Jim - good stuff. A little birdie told me that Wills Wing may be offering a supine harness sometime in the relatively near future (might be cheaper than the sewing machine, but I do see the benefit to having the machine and being able to completely customize). See Steve's reply to my questions in the comments for this video:



Some more footage of what I believe is the harness here:



Nicos - LOL @ googling "spreader bar". I think those are for the "prone" position. :lol:
User avatar
By red
#400306
sunnyjim wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:42 pm
Looking for a good Phaff Walking foot sewing machine if anyone has one. After flying this way(suprone) for a year now I want to make my own harness.
Sunnyjim,

Good luck with your search! There are several machine brands which may be as good (or better, for your purpose) than the Phaff. Google for:
walking foot sewing machine brands
to see some options. As long as you get straight and zig-zag stitching, the ability to handle strong (and UV-proof) threads, and decent reliability, you should be golden. Check out the reviews on the machine that you choose.

Last time I looked, the industrial machines were scarce, and seriously expensive, even for a refurbished unit. You might want to look into renting or leasing one for a year, and then decide if you should spend the big bux.
#400308
I have launched both ways and landed both ways.
Launching with my arms and upper torso rotated forward through the straps does not "drop" me into the harness and allows me to drive forward more like we do in prone when I launch. I used this method for flat slope launching in eastern Wa. Works very well but then a pilot has to rotate backwards through the straps to get comfy. NOt a big deal really.
I usually, however, just launch with the straps forward of the shoulders so I can just sit back and start flying but as I type this I am realizing this is actually what is "dropping me in" and "yanking" my feet off the ground with the last step. Hmm. Before I start making harnesses maybe just try more launches with shoulders forward of the straps eh?
Okay, as for full flare landings. I have flared with my shoulders behind the straps and good luck. What happens is that same "hinging effect". You go into the "flare" and don't feel anything for the first half of the flare. Then, the straps make contact with your shoulders half way through and for the second half of the flare your own body weight is pulling down on your shoulders and really working against you....It is like hitting a doorstop halfway through the flare so, when I want to land on my feet I do rotate forward through the straps at altitude before making my downwind approach. Flaring with the straps behind the shoulder is effortless and feels the same as in prone.
Another way to land with the FlyBar is to simply flare from the handles.
I hope this answered the question....keep them coming if I did not explain this perfectly. I have questions as well. My biggest question is what Is the most efficient way to get a chute out with these new ways of flying?
I have added an obstacle with my flybar....Wills wing has added an obstacle as well....
I am trying to imagine the worst case scenarios I can imagine....now....where would I want my chute to be and how would I want to deploy it?
#400309
The obstacles created are different for each contraption. For the FlyBar there are obstacle alongside the pilot but no obstacles below and behind the pilot. For the Easy Flyer there are obstacles both below and behind the pilot but no bars alongside the pilot.
The Gin Genie Race harness I am now using has a sort of "bomb bay" door that runs under the chute and up the side of the harness to the release handle alongside the pilot. In practice I simply pull on the handle and the "bomb bay" door drops away and leaves the entire chute hanging in my hand. I do not have to yank it out of a "pocket". The "pocket" simply vanishes as I pull on the release. Kinda nice. I guess I could simply drop it, wait for the "jerk" of full bridle extension and yank back on the bridle to deploy the chute from the diaper. This would definitely drop the chute into clean air right side up but what about upside down? Would not work upside down.
I am thinking Air Ballistic out the back of the harness where the cleanest air resides with a small chest mount like Wills Wing is using for back up.
#400310
I am very excited to get my "AeroTow" design bent up and tested. The wheel system is going to change as well. My wheels are going to remain near the lower control bar corners however, not out front. I thought of moving wheels farther forward to prevent whacks but If the pilot uses only the DT's to pull in for landing there is no way to pull the weight so far forward as to produce a 'whack" scenario (already tried, can't do it, the nose always wants to stay up when I roll it in using the DT's). My wheels are going to be shock absorbent and not transfer any wear and tear to the base tube either. When I land using the DT's very little weight is rearward. Takes a long time for my tail to "fall". My "tail" support will not be built like a tank and does not need to connect to the keel either, leaving the space behind the pilot free from obstacles for chute deployments. The thing that is going to make my very light weight "aerotow" design work is I have found most of my weight during take off and landing is on the front two wheels, not the tail...I will post pics and video when I get it up and running
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By Nicos
#400315
sunnyjim wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:29 am
I have launched both ways and landed both ways.

Launching with my arms and upper torso rotated forward through the straps does not "drop" me into the harness and allows me to drive forward more like we do in prone when I launch.

I have flared with my shoulders behind the straps and good luck. ..so, when I want to land on my feet I do rotate forward through the straps at altitude before making my downwind approach. Flaring with the straps behind the shoulder is effortless and feels the same as in prone.

Another way to land with the FlyBar is to simply flare from the handles.

My biggest question is what Is the most efficient way to get a chute out with these new ways of flying? ...where would I want my chute to be and how would I want to deploy it?

Jim, I know you've rotated your basebar and fly suprone, but is it in the stock position (setup for prone)?

If so, does launching and landing supine when upright (shoulders through straps) feel more or less the same as with prone setup (ie. are you able to pull-in as much with supine setup body/bar/uprights position, and do you have as much flare authority / travel from the uprights for full-flare landings)...? I figure you are going to be hanging in a similar way as a non-backplate prone harness when shoulders are forward through the straps (allbiet hanging slightly lower)..?

I was thinking that for supine (with standard prone bar/uprights positioning), handles would really only be for in flight and big flares... does that assumption seem about right?

+ my PG harness has a container underneath the seat — I assume chest mounting wouldn't be a good idea? Should the chute connect to the main bina (my assumption, not sure why tho), or to the deployment straps sewn into the harness? Thanks!

Gonna finally install that chute swivel too! Avian spreader bar is in the post, have a borrowed PG harness, scavenging old airframe hardware this weekend. But I totally refuse to get a naff flightsuit typically donned by avid parapillow pilots, otherwise how can the ladies tell the difference ;)
User avatar
By dbotos
#400334
Concerning parachute bridle connection, the Wills Wing Skyfloating manual says:

"Secure the parachute bridle to the back of the steel carabiner.

Use a rubber band retainer to keep it in place. This ensures that the parachute bridle cannot put load on the gate of the carabiner.

Caution: It is very important that the emergency reserve parachute bridle be attached to the carabiner at the top of the Skyfloating bar. This is to insure that the pilot and glider are suspended at the hang loop on the glider’s keel in the event of an of an emergency deployment. If the normal paragliding parachute attachment to the pilot’s shoulders is used, the opening shock could slam the pilot into the structure of the glider."

https://www.willswing.com/wp-content/up ... yFloat.PDF

My inclination is a chest-mounted parachute - I'd want the option to use either or both hands while I'm busy saying the S-word repeatedly (in my head or aloud). A side-mounted configuration with some visibility would probably be my second choice and a back- or butt-mounted one would be last.

Jim - I would think launching forward of the risers would be most similar to proven techniques for launching with a standard prone harness. Plenty of time to "swim" back between the risers and settle into suprone once sufficiently clear of terrain. For a foot landing with flare, being in front of risers again seems to make sense too, as it would be much like landing in a prone-style training harness. For roll-in landings, just stay back and slide it on in. :wink:
#400336
Yep, that's about right. I have launched both supine an suprone with my shoulders behind the straps and it feels just like launching prone except for the last step. On that last step your butt kinda swing forward but its no big deal, your already airborne. On flat slope launches I would probably launch with my shoulders in front of the straps so that "last step" thing does not happen.
For landing like we do in prone....rotate through the straps to get your shoulders in front and everything is cool. If you have been flying supine (below the base tube) the feedback and flare timing feels exactly like prone but you are hanging a bit lower than prone and don't have quite the flare authority. I never had a bad landing flying supine but I did notice this and told myself to keep my hands up high.
In suprone, to flare from the DT's you also rotate through the straps and you have gobs of flare authority because you are higher up on the tubes a bit. Better than prone. I can't see anybody blowing a flare landing suprone...and also, with my set up...you can roll it in or flare from the back of the "handles" as well....three ways to land it.
#400337
I want to emphasize if a pilot is going to flare from the DT's the way we always have and does NOT rotate through the straps in preparation for this at altitude...don't panic and don't try to rotate at the last minute in a panic....you CAN flare the glider with your shoulder behind the straps but be prepared to push HARD through the last half of the flare. I have done it, its doable, its just a pain in the ass.....
User avatar
By Nicos
#400338
Great, thanks a lot.

Been hanging from an old airframe just today, and indeed that info all seems to checkout fine.... this is gonna be GREAT! Hopefully I'll end up with the same or more authority over the glider, in exchange for full comfort boaty rides, yeah!!

Only downside I can see is being mocked by prone HGers, a lot. Not ever getting a flightsuit should mitigate this somewhat ;) Reckon at least some locals round these parts are gonna go supine when they see me darting around in great comfort! Must remember to take a book and some tea.

Now to get some tubes bent, a weld here, a weld there, giddy-UP!
By bobknop
#400349
These deltapilots are getting younger by the day!
I fly a funfex ,factory stock in supine config,you can order them that way.
The rake is changed and the downtubes are shorter ,the bottembar is about 10inches
towards the rear.
I use a kortel kruyer harnas http://www.dhv.de/dbfiles/gm/images/201 ... mg6616.jpg
weight 0.5 kg exclusive rescue.
I have the rescue on my back with two handles one on the back and one handle on the side.To be thrown rearwards.

I fly the same wing with my flylight doodlebug motorharnas also supine with the legs below the bar.
My 140kg max load rescue is with this harnas on my lap,to be thrown forward.

Regards Bob Sitting.
User avatar
By dbotos
#400443
Had a thought (one of many) the other night: What if, instead of being in front of or behind the risers, you were actually within the risers? That is, the riser on each side would split and part goes in front of your shoulder and part goes behind. Kind of like a skydiving harness (I think their risers usually attach a little bit forward of the shoulder versus being directly on top, but you get the idea):

http://www.wearethemighty.com/wp-conten ... -tower.jpg

Think this would work or would it be uncomfortable to be that upright for a long time or would it otherwise limit necessary body motions to safely fly a hang glider?
#400444
The beauty of the harnas I use,the kortel kruyer is you can recline all the way back with help of a cord running from the biner to where your feet are.That way you have about the same drag as a prone pilot with his head slightly too high,which is usually the case with us recreational pilots. When you get sore or tired its easy to go in upright position and all positions in between.This harnas has three straps to alter inflight One at the sholder one at the lower back and on where your but hangs out. I make six hrs + flights with this. See:

This is upright,I can go all the way back and lay flat,harnas weighs next to nothing and very comfy.
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By Nicos
#400447
Now there's a thought dbotos!!! Why not indeed! Do you know if there's a product out there that might suit?

Hm, I like Bob's harness and that looks good for coastal gooning, but my concern (having never flown supine) is getting upright such that you have good penetration on launch AND have excellent flare authority (same or better than prone) for those inland nil-wind/downwind moments...

Should have my upright handles ready in a couple of weeks, just in time for Spring :)
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