.

.

All things hang gliding. This is the main forum. New users, introduce yourself.

Moderators: sg, mods

User avatar
By sunnyjim
#394129
The PG harness I am using must be different than yours. mine does not allow me to lean forward very much at all. the monkey position is as far forward as it allows and my face is nowhere near the flybar...I did not know that some PG harnesses allowed more rotation....good to know
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#394218
here is short vid of the flybar with the most crucial structural requirement pointed out on film....
User avatar
By Windlord
#394219
Very nice! :thumbsup: Opens up a lot of possibilities. Innovation exploration is a healthy thing for the sport. Thanks for sharing.
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#394382
point taken....I have flared with shoulders behind the mains but only with wind. the videos posted show no wind landings and I did rotate forward to gain as much flare action as possible. Someone else mentioned flaring off the handles. I have not done that yet.....The safety potential of the flybar, especially with a central weak link and low stretch shock cord running through the center of the bar, is only going to be gained with the shoulders behind the mains.....answer? I am going to start experimenting with flaring from the handles where my shoulders remain behind the mains and see how that works in both wind and then no wind conditions....
I really want to see the full gamut of crash protection this position has to offer and it appears the ability to remain behind the mains is going to be a key component....Thanks for making this clear....later...sj
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#394741
Progress report on the Flybar:
Flybar version #1 allowed me to dive up to about 38 mph...
Flybar version #2 allowed me to up that to easily hit 43 mph....
Flybar version #3 is almost complete and should allow feet first at 50 plus mph in full control.
My flying buddy Scott Cambell dropped by yesterday, checked out my design and gave it two thumbs up....He can't wait to fly it. Scotty is a long time pilot...his Dad, Lucky Cambell, was the founder of a 1970's hang glider company....I think it was US hang gliders out of Arizona...
Scotty learned to fly when he was 8 years old...has worked for Cronk, Lovejoy, Wills, Was test pilot on the quicksilver series...Scotty is a bad ass pilot....so two thumbs up from Scotty means a lot.
I also rotated a deep belly bar downwards by 80 degrees to allow me to lower my center of mass by a full 4 inches for better roll control...test flight as soon as I complete a pair of skids I thought up last week...its all snow flying here in the NW and I always wanted to fly something that looks like Santa's Sleigh......Okay....that the update....I hope to blow past Fifty feet first with increased roll authority as well.....then land on a pair of "skids"....
P.S...here is my "skids" idea....I am going to buy an old style Tobaggan made from Ash or sitka spruce....Take one of the slats where they curve around and fiberglass the thing for strength....probably a bout four layers of Fiberglass cloth....the whole thing will be very light, naturally springy (shock absorbing) slide easily over a greater variety of surfaces and obstacles, and give my basetube which is rotated downwards good protection....
The skids will attach to the OUTSIDE of the control frame with only one pip pin per side, leaving the "inside" area free for maneuvers in the suprone position....Should have them built within a week....will post a "how to" on youtube if they work well... if youi want to see "version TWO" in action hitting 43 mph In no wind conditions....look up "Suprone Flydown, A Cold Day at Dog"....happy new year everyone...sj


Read more: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.ph ... z4U3wIaeBp
By freeflight
#394746
I wonder if you could replace the base bar now with a cable like the Fledge? Might save a little weight, drag, and some hassle?
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#394813
A simple cable should work But version #3 is going to take advantage of a belly bar rotated downwards to lower my CG by 4 inches and regain the excellent roll control I get when flying prone and that is my goal.... I am going for the full enchilada....here is what my version #3 is going to give me (hopefully)
1. full roll control....lightning fast roll reversals...
2. the same top speeds I can hit while flying prone...(50 mph plus)
3. total comfort, no more sore shoulders, back, neck, etc.
4. increased safety. ( a feet first crash has just GOT to be safer than crashing head first)

here is a video link to flybar version #2.....watch the GPS read out during the dive..this flight was.in no wind conditions so the GPS readout is going to be fairly accurate...

[youtube]
[/youtube]
By freeflight
#394832
It's a great setup and i'm sure it will meet all your expectations.
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#395491
The FlyBar shape has changed considerably as I discovered I do not need a "handle" to quickly pull in for speed but can use my heel to great effect.....The use of my "heel" is highlighted in the "spring fever" video.
Probably wont have any video of the latest FlyBar configuration until spring since most of our sites here in the NW are snowed in but I expect to exceed 50 mph in the suprone position this spring....on an old super sport!
Spring fever has struck....so I made another video and called it.....uh...yeah...
Suprone Spring Fever.......but the more I watch old footage the worse the fever gets.
heres a link:
]
User avatar
By skypooch
#395539
Hi Sunny Jim, Newbie here with a question. Can a wheels landing be performed using your system? Also, is glider performance degraded due to the suprone position? Seems that supine would be cleaner aerodynamically.
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#395552
skypooch wrote:Hi Sunny Jim, Newbie here with a question. Can a wheels landing be performed using your system? Also, is glider performance degraded due to the suprone position? Seems that supine would be cleaner aerodynamically.
The only difference I can see between suprone and Supine is one is feet under the bar and one is feet over the bar. Drag depends on how clean your harness is, not whether you are over or under the basetube so much.
Jerry Furnell in Austrailia is flying a very modern and aerodynamically clean PG harness in the supine set up....check out his vids...he goes by "suneagle"
I am flying a very old and aerodynamically dirty PG harness in the suprone set up. If I was flying suprone with Jerrys harness I would probably be flying as aerodynamically clean as flying prone, or very, very close to it.....
I guess I should upgrade to a cleaner harness eh?

Glad you brought up wheels....In a crash scenario I can keep my feet up inside the control bar and land on my wheels....done it...works fine....just about the safest set up around in my opinion.
User avatar
By skypooch
#395553
sunny jim, You mentioned landing on wheels in a crash scenario. But is it practical to land on wheels as your standard landing. I'm older with an iffy right knee and would prefer to do wheel landings.
sunnyjim wrote:
skypooch wrote: Glad you brought up wheels....In a crash scenario I can keep my feet up inside the control bar and land on my wheels....done it...works fine....just about the safest set up around in my opinion.
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#395559
Is it iffy to do wheel landings in suprone? I can not speak yes or no as of yet. I have only left my feet up over the basetube (intentionally) once so far and the landing was very smooth.....But I have only done it once....
I will do more feet up wheel landings, film it, and get it online....if this activity results in a crash I will get way more views on youtube than if everything goes well....lol
So here is what happened when I came in on my wheels, feet up.
Rolled for a short distance and the airbag under my bottom (built into lots of PG harnesses) kinda "caught me" as I rolled in, then the air slowly leaked out of the airbag after the glider had come to a complete stop....it felt like sitting down on a featherbed to be honest with you....but maybe I got lucky....had the "balance" just right....I dunno...
I love the full flare landing thing....just love it....but the "crash protection" I hope to build into the FlyBar is based on "wheel landings" so I guess I better start doing "wheel" landings to see how it goes eh?....Thanks for the question....I really did need to shift gears and test that aspect of the flying position.
Forty five years of flaring is a habit that's hard to break....but I'll do it....
Wheel landing in prone are a piece of cake BTW....I have done lots....including coming in downwind twice...once doing about 35 on touch down and once doing about 40.....the landing at 40 happened because where I fly (Chelan, WA.) a thermal ripped off and I experience a 180 degree wind shift on final...Out flying xc I was landing in a farmers plowed field with about 5 inches of dust.....going in downwind at 40....FORTUNATELY, I always flew with 12 inch pneumatic wheels at that time and I rolled in no problem except for the dust cloud I stirred up....a pilot overhead who saw my landing said it was a dust cloud you could see from the moon.....or something like that....anyway...later...sj
User avatar
By skypooch
#395631
sunnyjim, thanks for the detailed answer to my question based on your experience with suprone landings. Regarding your butt dragging on landing. Essentially you did a "taildragger landing." Pun intended. Instead of a tailwheel you had a tail skid. All you need to do is strap a tailwheel to your butt(tail) and you can do real taildragger landings! If your rotationally flexible enough like "Elvis the Pelvis) you would have a steerable tailwheel glider! I just solved the problem. In all seriousness though, why not install a fixed tailwheel like in the tandem instructional gliders. Feet up on the bar and no butt dragging. I'm a newbie so take my suggestions worth a grain of salt and a few laughs.
sunnyjim wrote:Is it iffy to do wheel landings in suprone? I can not speak yes or no as of yet. I have only left my feet up over the basetube (intentionally) once so far and the landing was very smooth.....But I have only done it once....
I will do more feet up wheel landings, film it, and get it online....if this activity results in a crash I will get way more views on youtube than if everything goes well....lol
So here is what happened when I came in on my wheels, feet up.
Rolled for a short distance and the airbag under my bottom (built into lots of PG harnesses) kinda "caught me" as I rolled in, then the air slowly leaked out of the airbag after the glider had come to a complete stop....it felt like sitting down on a featherbed to be honest with you....but maybe I got lucky....had the "balance" just right....I dunno...
I love the full flare landing thing....just love it....but the "crash protection" I hope to build into the FlyBar is based on "wheel landings" so I guess I better start doing "wheel" landings to see how it goes eh?....Thanks for the question....I really did need to shift gears and test that aspect of the flying position.
Forty five years of flaring is a habit that's hard to break....but I'll do it....
Wheel landing in prone are a piece of cake BTW....I have done lots....including coming in downwind twice...once doing about 35 on touch down and once doing about 40.....the landing at 40 happened because where I fly (Chelan, WA.) a thermal ripped off and I experience a 180 degree wind shift on final...Out flying xc I was landing in a farmers plowed field with about 5 inches of dust.....going in downwind at 40....FORTUNATELY, I always flew with 12 inch pneumatic wheels at that time and I rolled in no problem except for the dust cloud I stirred up....a pilot overhead who saw my landing said it was a dust cloud you could see from the moon.....or something like that....anyway...later...sj
:wink:
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#395642
LOL....I have seen the tail wheel set up for instructional use...Rob Mckenzies retractable seems to work well....but I cant see any of us (myself included) strapping all that hardware on for regular flying so I do, indeed, lay awake at night trying to imagine a very simple 'tailwheel" that does not alter our center of gravity, easy to attach, etc. etc.
I have thought of a design that is basically a rear stinger with a sleight "S"shape built into it that would look kinda like a dragons tail in flight but would "rotate" in the center of the "S". It would rotate 180 degrees and "swing down" to become a very effective taildragger.....But no....still too complicated....
I do expect to wake up some morning with an "Aha" moment that will be ultra simple but that has not happened yet
User avatar
By skypooch
#395644
sunnyjim, thanks again for the info. I just sent Rob a PM after watching his videos of his retract mod. Looks like that would work for me until you have your epiphany and build your game changer conversion. And I have no doubt that you will so I will continue to watch your posts like a hawk. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience on the subject with us on the forum.
sunnyjim wrote:LOL....I have seen the tail wheel set up for instructional use...Rob Mckenzies retractable seems to work well....but I cant see any of us (myself included) strapping all that hardware on for regular flying so I do, indeed, lay awake at night trying to imagine a very simple 'tailwheel" that does not alter our center of gravity, easy to attach, etc. etc.
I have thought of a design that is basically a rear stinger with a sleight "S"shape built into it that would look kinda like a dragons tail in flight but would "rotate" in the center of the "S". It would rotate 180 degrees and "swing down" to become a very effective taildragger.....But no....still too complicated....
I do expect to wake up some morning with an "Aha" moment that will be ultra simple but that has not happened yet
User avatar
By brian scharp
#395645
A skid or wheel could be incorporated with the backrest of the harness, on a frame inside the harness fairing. A few years ago, someone was designing a suprone flphg harness which consisted of a solid suspension back-frame that connected to the keel and ended with two skids. Probably pretty awkward to pick up for foot launch.
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#395831
brian scharp wrote:A skid or wheel could be incorporated with the backrest of the harness, on a frame inside the harness fairing. A few years ago, someone was designing a suprone flphg harness which consisted of a solid suspension back-frame that connected to the keel and ended with two skids. Probably pretty awkward to pick up for foot launch.
I am working on a pair of skids myself that attach to the "outside" of the control frame to allow the entire "inside" area free of obstacles flying in the feet forward, suprone position.....My skids are polyurethane and HOLLOW with a small access panel on top to the inside area to store BEER for after a good flight...about three bottles per side....
But I am really liking what you just shared Brian....It may be awkward or it may not...connected to the keel like a trike frame....a totally ridged connection....with a skid for the Arse, combined with skids on the glider...That would so work! The skid under the pilots tailbone would have to be up close and personal...rounded and integrated...nothing to "catch" on anything as the pilot sometimes would be pulled in over the basetube in flight... the skid would have to be high enough to clear the basetube...but that's not a problem....the tail skid would only come into play as the glider "settles" rearward in a landing and the pilot would have to keep a firm grip on the suprone bar or DTs so as the pilots "skid" begins skidding he/she could not be dragged rearward and lose his/her grip on the glider....The geometrical configuration would need to be maintained for this to work but I think this is well within the realm of a practical possibility and could be designed for ultimate comfort and STREAMLINED.........
When I built the "Fenison Hang Glider Catapult" I thought I would have to keep a death grip on the basetube during launch but I was totally wrong....acceleration was very smooth and required only a light touch during the rapid acceleration from zero to 20 mph in under 1.5 seconds...

I am imagining the same for this "rigid harness with skid scenario".
Any idea who it is that's working on it? Would love to get a hold of them.
It could be made to fold up easily(like a folding chair)
It would also be great in Negative "G" situations as there would be nothing to go slack in a direct, trike-like connection with the keel.
....Glad I checked back in here...awesome suggestion
here is off topic Catapult:
http://www.cmsstudios.com/fly2k/01flights/fhgc.htm
User avatar
By sunnyjim
#395833
I am trying to imagine a uncontrolled "crash" with such a set-up now...
Okay..glider slams in hard...no wheel lets say....nose is coming over....and the weak links built into the flybar along with low stretch shock cord inside the flybar combined with DT's that break but do not break catostophically, but instead,have about 6 inches of "give" built into them....
All that works together to break the pilots forward speed and momentum...
I can see it...totally doable even with the ridged harness....
Lets try another crash scenario....with wheel on the basetube....a full flare with no effect....the glider is at a high angle of attack when it hits....the wheels on the basetube allow the glider to roll forward....the ridged harness skid, however, hits hard and the sudden drag rips the glider out of our pilots hands....
Hmm......The ridged arm running up to the keel would have to have its ability to move rearward strongly limited......or I see an injury occurring....
yes...the rearward motion of the "harness" must be limited to the pilots normal range of rearward control motions....(full flare)
If that is built into the device then this type of crash should also not produce any injury to the pilot .
I hope you folks don't mind me running through the worst case scenarios here online...this is how my brain works....later...sj
User avatar
By brian scharp
#395837
Any idea who it is that's working on it? Would love to get a hold of them.
Sorry I don't, but it shouldn't be too hard to find on the yahoo flphg group. That's where I saw it a few years back. I'd check but my account is no longer active. Here's a link to Naniferd's YouTube channel where you can see his modification to convert a flphg harness to wheel launch. I considered doing this with a Doodlebug.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvBlyx ... GP-ZoxpPYw
the rearward motion of the "harness" must be limited to the pilots normal range of rearward control motions
I can't find it but there was a suprone motorized hang glider called the "Voodoo", if I remember correctly. It consisted of a wheeled boom, that attached to the keel at the CG. It had cables that connected to the control bar corners and limited rearward travel. With wheels on the control bar, it could launch and land on the wheels. I think that particular one had stirring issues and possible problems with cross wind takeoffs. There were others experimenting with similar setups, but I'm not finding the videos. Here's likely the first of that idea, but supine. [youtube]
[/youtube]
ICARO Piuma

I got an e-mail from Manfred Ruhmer today - I'm ve[…]

Hang Gliding at the Beach!

That's some good stuff Dave. Great seeing the coas[…]

Hello everyone!

I would never recommend that you pack up a 1974 […]

What specific things does your instructor want you[…]