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#403051
Sorry I have not been online here for quite some time. Glad I came back to check out all these great inputs.
I have launched a "go fund me" to create a hang gliding harness specifically for the suprone, Position BTW.
I will be working with Michael Berge of High Energy Sports on this project.
The harness we are hoping to create should be perfectly suited for the suprone position with features such as:

1. less than 1 1/2 inches of space between the pilots bottom and the sky below....this does two things. First, it allows the suprone pilot excellent roll authority on hang gliders built for the prone position without having to modify or "rotate" the base tube down wards. The second thing it does is remove the reserve container from under the pilots bottom to the pilots chest. The "under pilot" reserve locations used on most PG style harnesses might work okay for supine (feet forward, below the base tube) but they are a genuine safety hazard flying suprone because in suprone there is the possibility of "bumping" the reserve mounted under the pilot into objects such as base tubes and wheels. (please note: I have successfully dislodged my "under bottom" reserve pin by bumping into my wheels)

2.This will be a cross country style harness....very clean...it will look a lot like a pG pod style harness. It will have a neoprene boot with four internal straps for foot support. I have found the flexible "boot" to be quite easy to launch with a hang glider. It is also quite easy to get out of. It also allows me to use my legs and feet for pitch control....which is a BIG deal. I never use my arms for pitch control now. ALL my pitch inputs are done with my legs and it works fantastic. I can also pull in for speed quicker with my feet than I could in the prone position. In fact, I can pull in too quickly. Last month I stalled my glider at speed by pulling in too quickly....I actually rotated my nose downward so fast (using only my legs) that the airflow broke off the top of my wing.....so caution is advised.

3. In addition to working with High Energy and Michael Berge i am working with another well known engineer in the HG world on this project (name to be revealed at a later time perhaps).. I am also working with a non-hang gliding engineer who specializes in safety restraint systems and have found his input concerning the ability to simply rock upright and flare from the Downtubes on glider that are rigged for prone to be quite valuable. (sometimes we HG pilots can't see the trees because of the forest)...
The reason the FeX and other gliders built specifically for the supine position land so well with harnesses currently available is the DT's on those gliders have less forward rake (a lot less). Trying to aggressively "flare" such harnesses with the shoulders behind the risers on a glider rigged for prone results in the following action/reaction. A hard flare results in failure because the shoulder straps bottom out against the pilots shoulders and the legs and butt, which have been thrown to the rear of the glider, swing back forward causing the nose of the glider to drop.....
I have tried flaring hard from behind the risers five times on gliders rigged for prone and I have had five bad landings....I have tried flaring with shoulders in front of the risers about forty times now and Have enjoyed about 37 perfect stand up landings without the action/reaction of the butt swinging forward as stated above.

I am currently building and testing prototype harnesses that do indeed "solve" this issue.
I plan to take these "proof of concept" harnesses with me to high energy for Michael Berges evaluation and we are going to make something....not sure what yet....but something suitable for XC flight (lots of storage, comfy, streamlined)...
If any of you would like to support this effort, heres's the link....I am really encouraged by the level of interest so far.

https://www.gofundme.com/suprone-hang-g ... arness-r-d

I have three flights in now with my new 'proof of concept" harness and yes, I can just rock up with and flare from the DT's on a glider rigged for the prone position without having to rotate through the risers and I have had three perfect stand up landings.....I will post pics eventually but right now it looks like something built in Dr. Frankenstein's laboratory

Side note: For the Flybar idea, (which was designed to be used on gliders rigged for the prone position) to move forward it is vital that there is a suitable and safe harness design for it to move forward with.
I have gone through two years of "monkey business" with harnesses of all types. and Like I mentioned above, a reserve container under the bun is actually a safety hazard in suprone even though it works fine for pg or supine (there are no objects to be bumped into in PG or supine....
If every pilot who wants to fly with the flybar has to go through what I have gone through the past two years the flybar is doomed.....and that would be a sad thing because the flbar works fantastic. I have not found any problems using the flybar.....all the problems I have encountered have arisen from unsuitable harness choices.
BTW...thanks to the "cloudbase foundation" I have had access to experiment with DOZENS of PG style harnesses and found not one of them to be entirely suitable for use with a Flybar on a glider rigged for prone....
Anyway...that's an update.....Sincerely appreciate all the input and the links posted. I will study them all....

Sunny Jim

P. S.
I emailed Steven Pearson about the harness WW uses for the "easy flyer" and he replied that yes, when he flies with that harness on a regular glider he does have to "rotate through" the risers for both take offs and landings....thanks for that Steven Pearson....
User avatar
By Nicos
#403063
I have been having luck flying supine, launching from behind the risers, AND flaring using my new handles... I love Jim's concept bars, but wanted something that put less lateral force through the uprights.

Now all I need is a harness that works in prone and seated... which could be right around the corner.

Here's a vid from before I tried launching and landing from behind the risers (in case it's of any interest):
#403072
Nice work Nicos, I deeply appreciate the craftsmanship and thought I see went into your risers.
I havn't flown yours and you havn't flown mine....so all I can talk about is mine and the "lateral stress" the flybar places on the down tubes.
Only one test so far concerning the lateral stresses placed upon the down tubes using the Flybar.
I staked a glider with round down tubes down in my yard and applied sideways pressure to only one handle extension. The handle broke off cleanly behind the down tubes at the built in "weak link" with forty pounds pressure with no damage or deformation of the down tubes....still straight as a pin. In fact, I just flew those same down tubes last week three times....
The Flybar, which acts as a jury strut, does not allow lateral forces to bend, kink, or deform the down tubes. That was the whole idea behind the design but I get the "lateral forces" thing and I realize it looks scary, like.....OMG! ..That fuckers gonna die....
..but take a look at some of the WW Easy Flyer videos....
in some of those videos WW is attaching handles directly to the down tubes for roll input and they are doing so with no ill effect in spite of the fact there is no 'jury strut" to hold those handles in column with each other.
I do not recommend attaching handles directly to down tubes as will wing is doing unless those handles are designed to "twist" out of column at a certain poundage before causing any damage to the down tubes (which Wills Wing, being Wills Wing has probably built into their handle design)
There is no increase in down tube strength with such a design, and still you do not see the Wills Wing Easy Flyer falling out of the sky do you?
The flybar design, on the other hand, immensely strengthens the lateral strength of the down tubes yet has weak links built in BEHIND the down tubes to break off cleanly at a certain poundage....which is 40 pounds at this time...
The amount of pounds required to initiate a turn, although dramatically less than 40 pounds still depends on many things such as glider design, pilot weight, and the height the pilot is suspended above the base tube (for suprone).
I have found that when my butt is suspended one inch above the base tube the amount of lateral pressure required to initiate a turn is so sleight it would be hard to measure. I do not experience any lag between body movements and roll initiation flying a single surface glider...and only a very small lag flying a double surface glider....I can reverse my roll 45 degrees to 45 degrees on a single surface glider in less than 1.5 seconds....see the video..."got roll"?
I am actually accomplishing a faster roll rate on this single surface glider with my weight only one inch off the base tube than I ever enjoyed in the prone position, which requires we fly much higher off the base tube. (...in prone we fly one fist plus the thickness of the reserve in most cases, which adds up to 7.5 inches off the base tube when I fly prone)

Remember, the handles break off cleanly at 40 pounds causing zero damage to the down tubes....and I input sideways pressure to initiate my turns that is so little it is almost unmeasurable.
I will go into more detail why this is so in the dialogue below:

If I had to guess, I would guess I am using one tenth the energy to control my glider in suprone as I formerly used to control my glider in prone.
I am also using an entirely different muscle sets....for example,
I never use my arms to pull in for speed...I only use my feet and this is working fantastic.
I can pull in faster with my feet than I ever could in the prone position....
I have no fear of pulling in quickly because there is a flybar in front of me to catch me and prevent me from pulling in to far.....I can literally THROW myself forward with my feet....instantaneous increase I speed....I can also "hold' that speed in an ergonomically friendly fashion....I can hold my speed all day long.....it is easy pulling in from an object like the flybar.....it is NOT easy to maintain top speed using only down tubes to pull in from. I would never fly XC if I had to pull in for speed between thermals using only the DT's....In that position your arms are maxed out.....there is no rooms for being pitched forward through the DT's without dislocating one of your arms....
with the flybar this is not even a concern.
okay....as for "roll pressures"....I do not have to fight the "twisting" factor like I did in prone...I do not have to use my shoulders to "lead with my feet" to initiate a turn....I simply pull on one handle and all my weight moves in unison to one side.
It is as easy as sitting in a swing set, placing one hand on a person nearby, and pulling yourself over six to ten inches....a small child can do this.
And, I repeat, I no longer use my arms for pitch control.....the leg thing works much better.
the positive pitch of the glider keeps the base tube planted firmly against the back of my ankles so as I let it out....out she goes,....bending my knees....drops the nose...etc.
Pilots are just going to have to experience it to appreciate it.
It is kinda like flying GA with a stick and peddles.....but the feet control pitch and the arms control roll.

I do not expect my invention to "take off" until you all get a chance to see it in action or fly it yourself....so a heads up to all you southern CA. Pilots....
The Flybar is going on tour early next month.
Crestline, Marshall and Torrey for sure....maybe Funston and Marina as well........probably three weeks from this post...... early may, 2018
#403075
If anyone wants to support this project (a suprone specific harness) here is the link.
http://www.gofundme.com/suprone-hang-gl ... arness-r-d
only up one month and over a thousand raised so far
wow...Ican't wait until this new harness is available to the hang gliding public. Can't wait until the flybar is also in production....Can't wait to fly XC with this set up this summer....it all seems to take so LOOOONG....
Sorry it took me so looooong to get back to this thread....I am not much of an internet person....learning as I go.
thanks...SJ
here is a direct link to the youtube vid:

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