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User avatar
By DAVE 858
#395926
I believe they use the term lateral boundary because class E airspace does not normally extend down to the surface unless its near an airport. The example being the magenta dashed line on the chart. If it did not then there would be no lateral boundary because class E airspace is everywhere. Correct me if I am wrong but we are allowed to fly in the magenta shaded areas as well as the blue shaded areas? I always thought we were allowed to.
User avatar
By Wonder Boy
#395927
DAVE 858 wrote:I believe they use the term lateral boundary because class E airspace does not normally extend down to the surface unless its near an airport. The example being the magenta dashed line on the chart. If it did not then there would be no lateral boundary because class E airspace is everywhere. Correct me if I am wrong but we are allowed to fly in the magenta shaded areas as well as the blue shaded areas? I always thought we were allowed to.
Yes! You are correct!
User avatar
By Wonder Boy
#395928
Couple more visual aids
Attachments
fig 8-2.jpg
fig 8-2.jpg (323.99 KiB) Viewed 1444 times
airspaceFeature.jpg
airspaceFeature.jpg (182.02 KiB) Viewed 1444 times
User avatar
By magentabluesky
#395932
The practical side of this is real simple, “Don’t play on the railroad tracksâ€￾; of course unless, you want to be hit by the train. If that happens, the result will be devastating to our beloved sport.

The best thing about this discussion is understanding why there is Class E airspace to the ground associated with an Airport. There is an instrument approach to that airport, meaning expect traffic in that airspace. These approaches can be viewed on AirNav. If you want to minimize your risk stay clear of that airspace, Risk Management.

Back in the 1980’s there was a midair between a Rockwell Commander and a Wings West Commuter Airliner out of San Luis Obispo. Basically it was two airplanes going opposite directions on the “railroad tracksâ€￾ in close proximately to the Class E airspace key hole (at the time it was called a control zone). It was a clear VFR day. The Rockwell was practicing instrument procedures on the ILS. The Wings West was departing VFR on the official instrument departure (ILS) to pick up the instrument flight plan airborne. The “Cowboy Pilotsâ€￾ at the airline had their own rules and would fly outbound on the right of the valley (instrument procedure) and the opposite on the inbound. They stayed clear of the railroad tracks. They were “Cowboysâ€￾.

Flight Safety Foundation

NTSB

What’s my point? It is great to follow the rules, but far greater to understand why the rules are there in the first place. It is OK to think, but not too much. Don’t reinvent the wheel.

Stay off the “railroad tracksâ€￾.
By blindrodie
#395951
I feel like this
OK after this thread that's funny as s--- there Launch Potatoe Mike!

No harm done Rick!? Did not mean to get on you about this.

It's a great subject and good for those getting a H4 to understand, as least as we "should" understand it. Glad you kept hammering on LPM. :twisted:

:lol: 8)
User avatar
By aeroexperiments
#405185
I didn't see this thread when it re-surfaced a while back. It's absolutely not correct to imagine that the dashed magenta lines somehow "cease to exist" above 700' AGL or anything like that. Even if someone found one particular FAA official who seemed to be saying otherwise.

In AIM page 3-2-9 we read re these dashed magenta areas " The airspace will be configured
to contain all instrument procedures." You can't fit all instrument procedures into a space going up from the surface to 700' AGL. The Class-E-to-surface airspace extends upward until it hits some HIGHER class of airspace, and the overlying Class E layer doesn't count for that purpose. Technically speaking, hang gliders and other ultralights can't overfly that Class-E-to-surface airspace at ANY altitude without special permission.

If the FAA is construing things differently out in eastern Washington, well, lucky for you, but don't count on it lasting.

Consider this -- from an ask-a-flight-instructor forum-- I don't know what reg this comes from but I'm sure it's in there somewhere-- and by the way "special VFR" means permission to operate with lower visibility and cloud clearance limits than are normally required in that class of airspace such as class E--
The special VFR clearance only applies within the lateral boundaries of the class E or D surface area, so you will need to meet the standard class E visibility and cloud clearances once you leave the frequency of the controlling surface area ATC controller and the surface area. If you can’t maintain VFR outside of the surface area boundaries, you will have to let the controller know, so you can return to the airport. Only one special VFR aircraft is allowed in the airspace at a time.
(from http://www.askacfi.com/25502/svfr-in-cl ... rspace.htm )

Now, do you really think that this "only one special VFR aircraft at a time" policy ends at 700 AGL at most class-E-to-surface airports (dashed magenta circle)?

If you want to hurt your brain some more, read this--

post #37 on this thread from a model airplane forum--

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpos ... stcount=37

Steve
User avatar
By Wonder Boy
#405191
"Class E surface areas extend upward from the surface to a designated altitude; or to the adjacent or overlaying controlled airspace. "

In the picture, surface lateral boundary extends up up to the designated altitude of 700'. Its that simple.
The same way the lateral boundaries of E 700' goes to 1200' and no further. That the designated altitude.



Just a side note, check out what they said for drones.
http://www.uavexpertnews.com/wp-content ... ardner.png
Attachments
2.-Class-E-surface.jpg
2.-Class-E-surface.jpg (527.39 KiB) Viewed 699 times
User avatar
By aeroexperiments
#405192
Wonder Boy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:54 am
"Class E surface areas extend upward from the surface to a designated altitude; or to the adjacent or overlaying controlled airspace. "

In the picture, surface lateral boundary extends up up to the designated altitude of 700'. Its that simple.
The same way the lateral boundaries of E 700' goes to 1200' and no further. That the designated altitude.
Mike, you are just repeating what you've been saying all along and it's just wrong regardless of whether you found someone in the FAA to tell you that. See for example for a counterargument -- viewtopic.php?p=306462#p306462

There are plenty of ultralight forums out there and this question has been discussed many times and NO ONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD except for you is saying that it's ok to fly over those dashed magenta areas as long as we are above 700' AGL. No one except for you recognizes "E surface" , "E 700", and the rest of the E above that, as SEPARATE airspace classes. You won't find ANY graphic aid anywhere in the world that depicts it that way unless you created it yourself.

HERE is the way the picture should be drawn-- (taken from http://footflyer.com/PPGBibleUpdates/Ch ... estion.htm )
AirspaceAndLawForUltralights05.Still011-DNV-ClassE.jpg
AirspaceAndLawForUltralights05.Still011-DNV-ClassE.jpg (111.07 KiB) Viewed 688 times
http://footflyer.com/PPGBibleUpdates/Ch ... ClassE.jpg

Everything above the green surface, and everything above the surface of the chart in the round dashed magenta circle where there is no green surface, is ALL class E airspace. You don't get into some other "kind" of class E airspace as you descend above 700' or 1200'. It stays class E all the way up until it hits some higher class of airspace-- which in this case would be the 18,000' class A floor. And, technically speaking, you are still within the "lateral boundaries" of the class-E-to-surface region if you pass over the dashed magenta circle even above 18,000'! But that's a moot point for this discussion.

But, I'm sure you won't be changing your tune now. We talked about this long enough before with no effect.

The only real issue is whether the dashed magenta "extensions" that don't actually enclose the airport in question (like this http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=42.374 ... 74&zoom=10 ) are treated differently than the dashed magenta surface areas that do actually enclose the airport in question -- I gave my argument in the link above ( viewtopic.php?p=306462#p306462
) -- and see also this link --https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpos ... stcount=37 -- unfortunately the FAA may not see it that way any more though, even if that was what was originally intended.

Mike I challenge you to find ANY other outside source that supports your interpretation of the dashed magenta lines essentially "disappearing" once we are above 700' above ground. So that we are free to fly over that airspace as long as we are above 700' above the ground.

In just a minute here I'll come up with a handful of links that say they DON'T. Here you go:

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... thout-prio -- see especially his "question 6".

http://footflyer.com/PPGBibleUpdates/Ch ... estion.htm

http://www.powerchutes.com/airspace2.asp -- scroll down to his discussion of Class E

a few more minutes of googling would turn up MANY more

now see this image: (hit play briefly to play at 1:15)



and this one: (hit play briefly to play at 1:47)



it's only a trailer-- it doesn't get into what we're talking out other than showing those diagrams briefly -- but even the trailer has lots of neat footage in it -- would be worth watching the whole three minutes just for a bit of inspiration on some grey winter day-- a lot more interesting than reading yet another post on this topic--

If anyone buys this video and finds it says it's fine to fly over Class-E-to-surface surrounding an airport as long as you are over 700' above the ground, I'll eat my words-- and post the video of it -- but that's not going to happen.

PS By the way Mike, are you aware that "lateral" boundaries does NOT mean "vertical" boundaries-- it means the opposite-- it means the "horizontal" boundaries. In Far 103.17, no reference is made to it mattering in the least whether you are within the vertical boundaries of the Class-E-to-surface airspace, so your fundamental point here is completely moot. You seem to be missing this in every single post you've made on this subject.

Steve
User avatar
By aeroexperiments
#405193
Wonder Boy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:54 am
Just a side note, check out what they said for drones.
http://www.uavexpertnews.com/wp-content ... ardner.png
Hey-- that's a good thing. Thanks for finding and posting that. That document is dated January 10 2018. That's EXACTLY the argument I've been making since September 2010 -- that class-E-to-surface "extensions" that do not actually surround the airport for which they are designated-- i.e. the dashed magenta class-E-to-surface "extensions" like this http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=42.374 ... 74&zoom=10 -- are NOT what is meant by "within the lateral boundaries of Class E surface areas designated for an airport." To be consistent, the same must be applied to ultralights, because FAR 103.17 uses EXACTLY this same terminology -- "within the lateral boundaries of Class E surface areas designated for an airport."

So we should be able to fly over those dashed magenta areas in the case where they are "extensions" rather than actually surrounding a given airport.

I know I've seen at least one document from an FAA official saying the opposite sometime in the past -- but I sure hope this interpretation you've referenced here ends up prevailing. It's only common sense. (Uh-oh... )

Steve
User avatar
By Wonder Boy
#405198
The picture you posted shows exactly how it is.
The E surface area lateral boundary extends up to 700' (designated altitude)

Im not saying there are different types of class E, I pointing out the surface area extends up to "a designated altitude" of 700'.
The lateral surface area boundary only exists to 700', then 700' to 1200' boundary exists and class E is no longer contacting the surface.
Acknowledging the class E floors of 700' and 1200' are the key. Those are "designated altitudes" of Class E.
Attachments
AirspaceAndLawForUltralights05.Still011-DNV-ClassE.jpg
AirspaceAndLawForUltralights05.Still011-DNV-ClassE.jpg (111.07 KiB) Viewed 594 times
Screen Shot 10-04-18 at 07.46 AM.JPG
Screen Shot 10-04-18 at 07.46 AM.JPG (135 KiB) Viewed 594 times
User avatar
By DMarley
#405200
aeroexperiments wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:12 pm
The Class-E-to-surface airspace extends upward until it hits some HIGHER class of airspace, and the overlying Class E layer doesn't count for that purpose. Technically speaking, hang gliders and other ultralights can't overfly that Class-E-to-surface airspace at ANY altitude without special permission.
....
Steve
Steve,
Consider this: As GA and UL, we can fly over class B, C and D airspaces while below A (for UL), so why would a non-towered, or nonoperational-towered airport of class E have their airspace all the way up to A? It does not compute. Think about the reasoning behind why the rules are designed as such, as Mike Grisham indicated, rather than merely absolutes.

§103.17 Operations in certain airspace.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.
and specific to this questioning...
...or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport...
I don't know how to make that any more clear than what the rule indicates. Those lateral boundaries of the surface areas (sfc) are the 'walls' that extend downward from the surrounding horizontal G/E interface (assuming this class E is not an extension of class B,C, or D airspace). The class E area above airport, above the level of the surrounding G/E interface is NOT part of the airport's designated airspace.

Pg 17 in https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_ ... mplete.pdf
User avatar
By DMarley
#405201
... Also, the graphics provided to us by Foot-Fliers and other ultralight publishers seem to give an indication that we are not welcomed into the Class E areas surrounding an un-towered airport that are not a part of the possible surface area class E of the airport, which is simply not accurate according to FAR 103. Though, the graphics are merely showing the topography of the class surrounding an airport, but not wholly where we are excluded from without permission. It's probably a good idea to have a hand held tx/rx if you're likely to be flying within an un-towered airport's outer-most radius and possibly landing at one (without sfc) on a XC.
If the airport has jet traffic, it'd be prudent to know their typical approach and departure paths, etc., and stay out of those sectors at the typical altitudes.
User avatar
By aeroexperiments
#405204
Wonder Boy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:22 am
The picture you posted shows exactly how it is.
The E surface area lateral boundary extends up to 700' (designated altitude)

Im not saying there are different types of class E, I pointing out the surface area extends up to "a designated altitude" of 700'.
The lateral surface area boundary only exists to 700',
Mike, there you go again. I bet you are also the one who posted the last "answer" given to this question- -the one that currently has a negative vote score.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... 5714#55714
User avatar
By aeroexperiments
#405207
DMarley wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:52 am

Steve,
Consider this: As GA and UL, we can fly over class B, C and D airspaces while below A (for UL), so why would a non-towered, or nonoperational-towered airport of class E have their airspace all the way up to A? It does not compute. Think about the reasoning behind why the rules are designed as such, as Mike Grisham indicated, rather than merely absolutes.

It's very helpful to realize that it USED TO BE THE CASE that the type of Class-E-to-Surface airspace that SURROUNDED an airport was called a "control zone". Class-E-to-Surface extensions that did not surround the associated airport were not called "control zones". And the original language of FAR 103 banned ultralights from flying in CONTROL ZONES without special permission. And, by the way, control zones were CLEARLY DEFINED to go all the way up to the 18000' floor of the higher level of controlled airspace ("Positive Control Area") above. (Correction-- actually I guess it was the 14,500' MSL floor of the "Continental Control Area"-- which is something that no longer exists.) (This was before the days when there was a possibility of an overhanging class C shelf or other type of higher level of airspace, other than the 14,500 floor of the more strictly controlled airspace above.) Understanding this really helps to shed light on the original intent of the regulations. I discussed this some years ago here viewtopic.php?p=306462#p306462 .

I agree, it DOESN'T make perfect sense. The regs were NEVER optimized for the convenience of ultralight flyers. What makes LESS sense is imagining that the restrictions on ultralight flight over Class-E-to-Surface airspace are suddenly lifted at a mere 700 feet above the ground-- that makes no sense at all, if you understand the purpose of the regulations. That's like saying that when I'm granted the privilege to fly a general aviation aircraft under "Special VFR" rules at an airport with Class-E-Surface airspace, that privilege ends at 700' above the ground-- nonsensical.

Again, to repeat what I quoted about "Special VFR" a few posts up:
The special VFR clearance only applies within the lateral boundaries of the class E or D surface area, so you will need to meet the standard class E visibility and cloud clearances once you leave the frequency of the controlling surface area ATC controller and the surface area. If you can’t maintain VFR outside of the surface area boundaries, you will have to let the controller know, so you can return to the airport. Only one special VFR [or IFR] aircraft is allowed in the airspace at a time.

Now, would it make ANY SENSE AT ALL for that protection to end at 700' AGL? That's way too low and NO ONE interprets the regs that way.

Similarly for rules about aerobatic flight within these lateral boundaries, and so on.
DMarley wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:52 am
...or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport...
I don't know how to make that any more clear than what the rule indicates. Those lateral boundaries of the surface areas (sfc) are the 'walls' that extend downward from the surrounding horizontal G/E interface (assuming this class E is not an extension of class B,C, or D airspace).

I hear what you are saying about imaging that only the lowermost airspace is somehow "within the walls" but that's not what they mean by "within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport...". What they mean is exactly the same as if they had written "anywhere above the ground surface area that is surrounded by the dashed magenta lines that denote the part of the Class E airspace which is in contact with the ground surface." Believe me, no one else except for the two of you is going for this "inside the lowermost walls" idea. It just doesn't work. The class-E-to-surface denotation is there to protect the instrument approach and you can't adequately do that by defining it the way you are saying.

I'm amazed that you ever found a single person associated with the FAA to offer an explanation in line what you are saying.

Steve
Last edited by aeroexperiments on Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
By aeroexperiments
#405208
DMarley wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:14 pm
... Also, the graphics provided to us by Foot-Fliers and other ultralight publishers seem to give an indication that we are not welcomed into the Class E areas surrounding an un-towered airport that are not a part of the possible surface area class E of the airport

You mean the Class E airspace that underlies a 700' or 1200' floor, with Class G below? (Or for that matter, the Class E airspace which overlies say a Class D area around a towered airport-- note that here there IS a defined ceiling to the Class D.)

I don't read the graphics that way at all. Where are you getting that from? They aren't saying "stay out of all this airspace". They are just saying "all this airspace falls within the airspace that is called Class E and therefore Class E cloud clearance and visibility rules apply, and you as an informed pilot ought to be aware of that".

Like I say-- someone ought to buy and watch that video I mentioned a few posts above-- not just the trailer-- if it supports this idea that we can fly over the dashed magenta lines surrounding an airport as long as we are at least 700 feet above the ground, with no special permission, I'll eat all my words, on video. That's not going to happen.

You know, they ought to put this stuff on the USHPA H-2 or H-3 exam. Instead of that silly stuff about trying to define what a "coordinated" or "slipping" turn is.

Steve
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