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By magentabluesky
#402766
Speaking of Namby-Pamby Pilots tied to your mother’s apron strings, would it be considered a Part 107 Drone Rules Operation where the student pilot is equipped with a headset and receiving instructions from their instructor on the ground.

Would this not be a voice activated human-hydraulic drone?

Namby-Pamby Link
User avatar
By DMarley
#402820
ChattaroyMan wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:38 pm
. . . for purposes of instruction - legally.
magentabluesky - Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:30 pm
ChattaroyMan,
Tandem Instruction

...

The negative Tandem training is the big one: Foot launched takeoff and landings.

First, the Tandem Hang Glider control bar is so gigantic to accommodate two people the pilot needs an arm span of a NBA basketball player to have any flare authority on landing and to hold the down tubes on takeoff. Next, trying to land or takeoff with another person next to you (or behind you) is so different from solo flight, the poor student has to dump all the muscle memory of the tandem training to solo. This is negative training.

So to solve these issues most tandem training is done with a glider with landing gear. Great for teaching beginning students to land on gear, and then the rest of their flying experience they cannot figure out why they cannot land on their own two feet. Great Training!

That’s ok if all your flying is going to be done at a sea level Florida Flight Park under aerowtowing, launching off a cart and landing on your wheels, or your goal is to be a tandem pilot. Sounds a lot like sailplane operations. Sailplane operations are a whole lot safer with a rudder on tow. So do you teach lockouts with your tandem flights?

So you get your H4 at the Florida Flight Park, sign up for the Dinosaur U.S. Nationals and your feelings get crushed when you cannot stick your landings in the high density altitude. Oh God, the ground is moving so fast underneath me. What is going on? Where are my wheels? Where is my instructor?

If you what namby-pamby tied to your mother’s apron strings pilots, Tandem is for you.
Do you honestly believe this bs that you wrote? You could spout off similar outrageous accusations about training-hill flying if you were equally as belligerent towards that type of training. People who strive to become good pilots don't confuse one mode of landing for another. People aren't that stupid. How about providing some real arguments rather than your imaginary examples?
Please.
User avatar
By magentabluesky
#402823
Absolutely.

Ok, Mr. Smarty Pants, please explain the Law of Primacy and how it is incorporated into a Training Syllabus for the fine folk on this forum.
User avatar
By DMarley
#402834
Lund made that assumption with gullible, young college students who had yet not had the experience to weigh both primary and secondary points of the persuasion.
I'm pretty sure had Lund went back years later to those same people who had made successful careers for themselves and tried his same stunt, he would have seen quite different results. People with plenty of real-life experience are not quite as gullible as you or Lund would color them to be.

If you base your assumptions of the behaviors of students from within a small box, you're gonna get small results. Any beginning pilot understands the differences of the mode of landings between an aerotow tandem and that of a solo HG landing. It ain't that hard to see the differences. But then, if that new pilot has a problem with making good decisions, then perhaps he/she isn't geared to be a pilot in the first place.
I'm sure you are basing your bias on one or two of your poor students who've done some silly things. We can't be basing our training curriculums on the lowest common denominator of student. Look at what that has given us within the public schools so far.
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By DMarley
#402835
I also firmly believe that 'hands-on' instruction is not enough to thoroughly train anyone in any skill. I do not have any university-professor-derived laws or rules to refer to, but actively studying reading material prior to hands-on instruction gives far superior results compared to the later alone. I do believe this is where our current training programs have truly suffered.
Many students view HG as merely a pastime activity, much like recreational waterskiing, alpine skiing, tennis, whatever. "Why read a bunch of books when there are eager instructors ready to show me the light?" For God's sake, HG is aviation. Other than part 103, all new, old, and prospective pilots are required to do their own study!
What schools should strongly encourage or demand of the prospective student is to completely read and understand to his/her full, newb abilities the content of some of the many fine beginning HG books available to us -- before lessons begin. There would be far less headaches and setbacks during the lessons. Those that would not do the study would not be accepted into the class at that time. (fat chance of any instructor refusing prospective students based on their study habits)
I was completely amazed by many of the other students in my groups who had no clue about the theory of HG flight. They had not cracked the training manual that was required for our class, let alone purchased it. No one else had even heard of Dennis Pagen and had never searched for any HG training material on the all-knowing www. As such, they lagged far behind in their skill development, and many became so discouraged in their lack of abilities that they outright quit. Likely a good thing.
An instructor cannot possibly teach every minute detail to a new pilot without prior diligent study by the student. The pilot must be willing and eager to teach him/herself through prior study, with reinforcement, refinement, and correction by the instructor.
User avatar
By magentabluesky
#402843
DMarley wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:37 pm
People who strive to become good pilots don't confuse one mode of landing for another. People aren't that stupid.
It is really critical to establish a baseline in training. In hang gliding that baseline should be foot launched takeoff and landings on the training hill if the pilot intends to do foot launched takeoff and landings in their life time.

I offer the Fundamentals of Instruction because it is required knowledge by the FAA for all licensed instructors and USHPA rated instructors. A common accepted resource in the Aviation Community.

Pilots are going to do what they were trained to do. I have flown with many Naval Aviators. They were trained to land on the boat. That was their baseline. When tired or stressed they would revert to what they were trained to do, land on the boat. When landing on the boat, once you caught the wire and it did not break, you were done. When landing a regular airplane once the mains touched down (when tired or stressed) the Naval Aviator’s whole body would relax. They were done, what they were trained to do, but we still had another mile and a half of runway in front of us to roll out. The plane was not done. They were not stupid, just reverting to what they were trained to do. This would be exaggerated when they were tired or stressed. The Laws of Learning would be Exercise and Intensity for the Naval Aviator in reverting to landing on the boat.

There are down loads of the black box after airline accidents where the Airline Captain is trying to steer the airplane on the ground with the yoke. On the ground the nose wheel is steered with the rudder pedals or the tiller. Is this Airline Captain stupid or inexperienced? No, he is tired or stressed or both and is reverting to his baseline, because he learned to drive a car before he learned to fly.

Now the SR71 Pilots were thinking so far ahead of the airplane, we had to wait for the plane to catch up to us to land.

I never got to fly with the Space Shuttle Pilot, but the hall ways in the training center were considered holy ground after he walked past.
”DMarley” wrote:You could spout off similar outrageous accusations about training-hill flying if you were equally as belligerent towards that type of training.
You are correct. If your only goal is to fly off the cart and land on wheels, don’t bother with the training hill.

It is the same with scooter towing. Scooter towing is great for multiple cycles. The problem is the takeoff with scooter towing requires a slightly higher pitch attitude than a foot launched hill takeoff. So if initial training (Law of Primacy) or highly repetitive cycles (Law of Exercise) is etched into the memory of the pilot, the pilot is being set up for problems later on with a normal foot launch hill takeoff. This is especially true if the pilot is stressed or tired. They will revert to what they were trained to do subconsciously, a slightly higher pitch attitude which is not appropriate for a foot launched hill takeoff.

There needs to be a base line etched into the subconscious on the training hill of foot launched takeoff and landings. Everything else should be the exception from the baseline, unless of course you don’t care about foot launched takeoff and landings.

Go to YouTube and watch the Contest Competition Pilots try to foot launch off the hill. It is pathetic.

Namby-Pamby Pilots flying contests.
User avatar
By TjW
#402848
magentabluesky wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:57 am
DMarley wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:37 pm
People who strive to become good pilots don't confuse one mode of landing for another. People aren't that stupid.
It is really critical to establish a baseline in training. In hang gliding that baseline should be foot launched takeoff and landings on the training hill if the pilot intends to do foot launched takeoff and landings in their life time.

I offer the Fundamentals of Instruction because it is required knowledge by the FAA for all licensed instructors and USHPA rated instructors. A common accepted resource in the Aviation Community.

Pilots are going to do what they were trained to do.
<snippage by TjW>
”DMarley” wrote:You could spout off similar outrageous accusations about training-hill flying if you were equally as belligerent towards that type of training.
You are correct. If your only goal is to fly off the cart and land on wheels, don’t bother with the training hill.

It is the same with scooter towing. Scooter towing is great for multiple cycles. The problem is the takeoff with scooter towing requires a slightly higher pitch attitude than a foot launched hill takeoff. So if initial training (Law of Primacy) or highly repetitive cycles (Law of Exercise) is etched into the memory of the pilot, the pilot is being set up for problems later on with a normal foot launch hill takeoff. This is especially true if the pilot is stressed or tired. They will revert to what they were trained to do subconsciously, a slightly higher pitch attitude which is not appropriate for a foot launched hill takeoff.

There needs to be a base line etched into the subconscious on the training hill of foot launched takeoff and landings. Everything else should be the exception from the baseline, unless of course you don’t care about foot launched takeoff and landings.

Go to YouTube and watch the Contest Competition Pilots try to foot launch off the hill. It is pathetic.

Namby-Pamby Pilots flying contests.
DMarley: Not everyone strives.
magentabluesky: I've had a couple of scooter-trained pilots come through. I've seen them have a pretty good launch off the training hill, and then essentially wait for the instructor to increase the speed of the rope. That usually winds up with me shouting.

Pilots also get lazy. Crestline is a remarkably simple launch. Summer afternoons, you can probably get away with two lazy steps and push out. But of course, that isn't always true, and periodically, people find that out.
User avatar
By aeroexperiments
#402966
magentabluesky wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:57 am
There are down loads of the black box after airline accidents where the Airline Captain is trying to steer the airplane on the ground with the yoke. On the ground the nose wheel is steered with the rudder pedals or the tiller. Is this Airline Captain stupid or inexperienced? No, he is tired or stressed or both and is reverting to his baseline, because he learned to drive a car before he learned to fly.
Yet on the other hand, I read of a case where an airline pilot was driving home or to a motel after a flight and he plowed right into another car, pulling back on the steering wheel all the while hoping to rise over it. Fatigue was thought to have been a major factor-- he was basically sleep-driving or nearly so--

!!!! Get adequate rest before flying...
User avatar
By magentabluesky
#403061
By piano_man - Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:45 am
piano_man wrote:And I want to add -

I think it could be or IS "dangerous" to become proficient at aero tow before becoming a mountain (foot launch) pilot because, if for no other reason - failure to hook in. You see as a mountain pilot "hooking in" is ingrained into your skull. At least it was when I was on the training hills at Lookout. If you don't hook in and you launch from a cliff you probably won't make it.

Conversely, learning to hang glide mostly by aero-tow first, IMO it's easier to become complacent with regards to doing a hook-in check, because with aero tow you cannot launch if you're not hooked in. You'll be hooked in by default. You will go in the prone position before you signal - go, go, go! Not so on a mountain or a cliff with the wing on your shoulders.

Bill Priday learned it the hard way. Unfortunately, he had only 3 seconds to live after that. Was a gift to all of us who were there - a first hand lesson as to what will happen if one launches unhooked from a cliff. I may be wrong but I think he was an experienced aero tow pilot and novice foot launcher. It was after that tragic day I came to this opinion that I now share here.

Sure, learning to foot launch before aero tow doesn't make you or me immune to launching unhooked. But I think the odds move in our favor.

I think the BEST way to learn for most knuckle heads like myself is first on flat land (ground school), then small hill, then maybe one tandem, more small hill (optional), graduate to big hill, maybe another tandem when you graduate to the mountain, 2-3 tandems total no more before you're a mountain pilot.

Or do no tandems, that's what I did. But I do think one or two would be better; I just wanted the thrill of my first high altitude flight to be solo, off the mountain.

Become a mountain pilot with a few dozen or a couple of hundred mountain flights first, then go get your aero tow rating if you want; or don't.

When I was down in Florida to get my sign off for AT so I could demo a Wills Wing, I met a young Lass who had over 20 tandems and going (no foot launches) and still wasn't signed off. At $120 a pop that's quite a fee, enough to buy a pretty good wing even if used.

Now if your knees or any conditions make it prohibitive ... well as they say... you picks your poison(s) and you takes your chances. Pardon my buzz kills, I'm out. Peace.
Link
Well said.
By cheesehead
#403185
I know several HG veterans here in the midwest who have not done a slope launch in 10-20 years. Static line towing, then platform payout towing, and now aerotowing. No desire to go to the mountains. All of our little old ridge soaring sites are closed except for very sneaky bandito flights. They all land on their feet well, though. My first tandem rating was achieved via aerotow and wheel landings. Hope to never do it another way. It's SO easy. Tandem via foot launch and landing is an art that's tough to master. Rob McKenzie is the tandem god--over 10,000 on feet. Solo pilots with any clue must know that they have to learn the necessary skills for whatever launch method they will be using. I was way overconfident on my 1st aerotowing day and it got pretty ugly.

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