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By bacrdek
#402310
I recently listened to a great interview with Jocky Sanderson, founder of paraglider SIV training (cloudbasemayhem podcast, episode 19).

It got me thinking about stuff I could be doing in my HG to practice for safety in the rough stuff. So, what are some good maneuvers to practice when you're high above landing in good air?

Some specific questions:
- How aggressive can you get with straight stalls before tumbling becomes a real danger? (i.e. is stalling with the nose 45 degrees high a good thing to practice?)
- What's the best way to enter and recover from a spin?
- What about trying to stall mid-wingover. Is that a really bad idea?
- Any others?

I'd especially appreciate thoughts from experienced pilots who have actually practiced this stuff and know a fair bit about it. Many thanks.
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By magentabluesky
#402311
You've got to expect things are going to go wrong. And we always need to prepare ourselves for handling the unexpected.
- Neil Armstrong, Magnificent Desolation: Walking On The Moon,
Every flying machine has its own unique characteristics, some good, some not so good. Pilots naturally fly the craft in such a manner as to take advantage of its good characteristics and avoid the areas where it is not so good.
— Neil Armstrong, quoted in Popular Mechanics magazine, June 2009.
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By mark selner
#402312
not vary experienced but if bad things happen you could wrap your arm around the base bar grab your arm with your other hand and do not let go.the busing will take awhile to go away
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By TomGalvin
#402316
I would suggest taking a lesson with an accomplished aerobatic pilot(John Heiney, Aaron Swepston, Ryan Voight, etc....) Instead of asking on the internet.
bacrdek wrote: - How aggressive can you get with straight stalls before tumbling becomes a real danger? (i.e. is stalling with the nose 45 degrees high a good thing to practice?)
"Mild" stalls at altitude "can" be a useful tool under instruction. Aggressive stalls are rolling the dice.
- What's the best way to enter and recover from a spin?
To recover? Pull in. A lot...

To Enter...take a lesson with an accomplished aerobatic pilot.
- What about trying to stall mid-wingover. Is that a really bad idea?
Yep

- Any others?
Nope

I'd especially appreciate thoughts from experienced pilots who have actually practiced this stuff and know a fair bit about it.
I enjoy mild wingovers. For the hard core stuff, learn from those that walk the walk.



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By red
#402317
bacrdek wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:56 pm
I recently listened to a great interview with Jocky Sanderson, founder of paraglider SIV training (cloudbasemayhem podcast, episode 19).
It got me thinking about stuff I could be doing in my HG to practice for safety in the rough stuff. So, what are some good maneuvers to practice when you're high above landing in good air?
bacrdek,

SIV is an acronym that only applies to things likely to collapse in mid-air at the first hint of turbulence. You probably won't see that term used here.

Severe nose-high stalls are not a good idea in most aircraft, and if you practice them in any aircraft, keep your insurance (life and health) fully paid up. Do not have an arm wrapped around the basetube when ground contact is imminent, because a severely broken arm/elbow would be a likely outcome. Even when extremely high, I'd still want a Basetube Safety Cable in the game, just in case. (see my web page, linked below). Elbow injuries can be a lifetime disability, affecting almost all sports activities. A broken bone that cuts an artery can be fatal, fair warning.

IMHO, it's a bad idea to ask for "extreme" type advice from the Internet. I would recommend that you participate in a parachute clinic, which is strictly a hands-on HG activity, giving you real life-saving skills with your parachute. Most parachute clinics happen indoors, nobody gets dunked, and everybody goes home with a freshly packed parachute. In my first forty years of flying HG in the Rockies, those clinics are the only times I have ever seen my parachute canopy.

What you are doing in mid-air and what you think you are doing can be two very different things. Please find a qualified, experienced instructor/mentor to observe and advise you in growing your skills. Video from the ground and on the glider can be very helpful, then.
By bacrdek
#402319
Just to be clear, I'm not talking about learning high-G aerobatics here (not to say that's not attractive too). The point here is for flying in rough mountain air. If you ever end up in some radical attitude, possibly stalled, you want the experience and muscle memory to do the right thing with the right timing so as to fly away without breaking the wing. Paragliders practice for this using SIV (yes the dynamics and failure modes are different).

I don't think this is asking for "extreme" advice, but point taken about finding an instructor rather than asking on the internet. Thanks all for the responses :)
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By kukailimoku2
#402320
Mitch McAleer wrote an article for the old HG mag and made it simple. If the world goes quiet and sideways, pull all the way in and hang on.

Tough to argue with the master...
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By red
#402322
bacrdek wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:55 pm
Just to be clear, I'm not talking about learning high-G aerobatics here (not to say that's not attractive too). The point here is for flying in rough mountain air. If you ever end up in some radical attitude, possibly stalled, you want the experience and muscle memory to do the right thing with the right timing so as to fly away without breaking the wing. Paragliders practice for this using SIV (yes the dynamics and failure modes are different). I don't think this is asking for "extreme" advice, but point taken about finding an instructor rather than asking on the internet. Thanks all for the responses :)
bacrdek,

Okay, now that's clear. In extremely rough air, the first thing to do is to take one foot (one leg) out of the harness. Whenever you go weightless then, spread your feet about as wide as your shoulders, each time. Increase the grip effort of your hands, in case the bar wants to rip out of your hands. Failure to separate your feet could result in a two-footed hammer punch to the keel. A broken glider may be the result, rare as that may be. With your feet spread, even if one foot hits the keel, it will likely slip off to one side or the other, keeping the keel intact. Your feet hit the sail instead, which spreads the forces widely; this will be much safer. Rest your foot on top of the "harness" leg, between bouts of turbulence. If the air gets smooth again, you can put the free foot back into the harness at some point, and relax.

You can also grab each upright thumbs-down, fully prone, to ride out the rough stuff. If the air smacks your glider down hard, normally the control bar could be ripped from your hands, and you would hit the bottom of the sail hard, even if the glider is still upright. This impact can be a very serious shock to the wing. Using the thumbs-down grip, you hold firmly to the uprights, but let your hands slide slowly upwards on the uprights, absorbing the energy of the turbulence. You will hit the sail with much less force then, and you may not hit the sail at all. As you regain normal G-loading, let your hands slide easily back down the uprights to the original position, and be ready for the next event. This hand position also lets you lock elbows and "strut" yourself to the glider, meaning that the air has to work a lot harder to take away your control, and you will be flying fast, not stalled.

You can practice this "thumbs-down" prone flying at any time, and I recommend that you should become very comfortable with this technique in smooth air, before you really need it one day. It's fine to know this stuff and never need it. Do not launch into conditions where you think you will need it. 8)
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By DAVE 858
#402326
Read Michael Guillian's book Basic Aerobatics and get some flight instruction in an aerobatic airplane first. I believe this does two things, it shows the pilot what exactly is entailed in aerobatics E.I. can you handle it physically. And secondly, it provides an example of the level of precision needed to competently perform the maneuvers.

Aerobatics are an unnecessary risk in most cases. If you chose to engage in aerobatics, I would recommend some coaching from an extremely competent & current aerobatic pilot. Like all things in aviation there is a slow progression to work up to when it comes to aerobatics and the consequences are dire if you skip steps.

I should follow my own advise. I have managed to piss off both Aaron and Ryan and so my hopes of ever learning from either one of them are probably gone. :surrender:
By Lazypilot
#402329
Dave, I think Ryan and Aaron are both mature enough to realize that they have more in common with you than not.

Bacrdek,

Hang gliders are positive G force aircraft only. If you get the glider into an attitude and airspeed combination that produces zero or negative G load you will have practically no control at all. You must be spring-loaded to the maximum pull in you can get, when you realize you're too slow and are at risk of tail sliding it may well be that only by being as far forward as possible can you get flying again.

I used to do aero with hang gliders, I really enjoyed the type of wingover that used mostly roll to get to inverted, This required a quick rolling glider, and there are some I've flown that really delivered. When flying a stiff rolling glider that had good energy retention I would bank the glider about 30 degrees as I passed through level flight on my entry dive. I then centered myself and let the glider go 'round, it was essentially a loop canted to one side. Tilting the loop in this way reduces the height you have to climb to to get over the top, also I feel more comfortable having a bank angle going over the top, I feel like if I get too slow I can crank in more bank and be less susceptible to going negative.

The rolling wingover is what I prefer, I can only do one or the other, but Mitch can combine them for some really nice looking moves.

In the rolling version I start out by cranking in a steep bank angle while pulling in, then when I've got speed I roll back to level, the glider zooms and when I'm climbing at about a 45 degree angle I crank it as hard as I can, as I go over and start heading back down I pull in.

Most hang gliders oscillate in both yaw and roll, If my wang was to the left then as the glider dives out of it and begins to zoom it naturally will want to go the right for the next one.

I've flown several gliders that, once started, would oscillate at a rate that compliments the glider's pitching rate, so it's sometimes possible to perform linked alternating wingovers using only pitch control, the glider establishes the bank for me. I have to keep a close eye on this, the glider might decide to stabilize instead of roll. Then it's time to crank in some roll, HARD!

I taught myself wingovers using a Seagull 10 Meter. It was high performance by the standards of the day, and like many pilots back then I played around with the tuning of the kite. I added anhedral outboard and compensated by adding dihedral inboard. When I got her where I wanted she was a very quick rolling glider.

I started by flying "Lazy Eights". I would bank the glider without pushing out, it would dive as the bank cranked in, and I would get maybe as much as a 30 degree dive and level the wings, this allows the glider to zoom upward and I would add or remove bank angle as necessary so that the glider would end up at trim speed (min sink) with no pitch angle, just a moderate bank angle in the opposite direction.

The idea was to ease my way into more extreme wangs, adding bank angle and allowing more zoom a little at a time. After awhile I got to where I could reach an almost wings level attitude as I came over the top. Such a rush you betcha!

I had some really close calls along the way, and since I managed to luck out and get old while still pretty much in one piece I've made up my mind to build a Part 103 legal glider that will be suitable for aerobatics.

For me, it means being secured in the glider so I can't get thrown around if things sour. It also means having control even in negative G situations. The sacrifice will likely be having to wheel launch and land, and visibility won't be as good as when prone.

But that's Ok, I don't consider it to be a wise move flying aero with a flex wing. It is true that full on loops are much easier now with the gliders having good L/D and high speed capability, which generally translates to good energy retention.

The downside, if that's an appropriate term for it, is that the high speed capability makes it even easier to overstress the kite. You need to be good at monitoring your airspeed and attitude, your kinetic energy. Get going at a real clip and let the bar out too fast and there goes that pretty new kite. Know your emergency parachute procedures. Some folks add an extra chute so if the original gets all wound up around your spinning wreckage you'll have one more chance.

"Chance". Now there's a word for ya. Sez an awful lot with only 6 letters.

The sticker on the keel said that the glider should not be flown upside down or backwards. I did both, flying a Comet in '81, the glider didn't survive but I lucked out and got away with it.

I love flying aerobatics. It'll be nice having a machine built specifically for that, with more maneuvers possible and less fear of busting up the glider in the sky.

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