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User avatar
By JR
#401870
I'm just getting around to trying to complete our club's USHPA chapter renewal and cannot believe how complicated and time-consuming this process has become. It's to the point now where I'd simply let our club expire except for our need to insure a couple sites, but to any USHPA officials reading this thread, you need to either simplify and streamline the process or expect to lose some chapters and/or members who don't or won't want to deal with all the added paperwork and bureaucracy that essentially amounts to a giant CYA for the organization and its perceived self-insurance exposure.

I'm a long-time (going on 40 years) supporter of the USHPA, an Examiner, Observer, former Instructor, and our club's chief cook and bottle washer but I'm closer now than I've ever been to washing my hands and walking away from the organization.

JR
User avatar
By JR
#401874
JR wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:32 pm
I'm just getting around to trying to complete our club's USHPA chapter renewal and cannot believe how complicated and time-consuming this process has become. It's to the point now where I'd simply let our club expire except for our need to insure a couple sites, but to any USHPA officials reading this thread, you need to either simplify and streamline the process or expect to lose some chapters and/or members who don't or won't want to deal with all the added paperwork and bureaucracy that essentially amounts to a giant CYA for the organization and its perceived self-insurance exposure.

I'm a long-time (going on 40 years) supporter of the USHPA, an Examiner, Observer, former Instructor, and our club's chief cook and bottle washer but I'm closer now than I've ever been to washing my hands and walking away from the organization.

JR
Now that I've vented, I feel better.

JR
User avatar
By miraclepieco
#401886
JR wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:32 pm
I'm a long-time (going on 40 years) supporter of the USHPA, an Examiner, Observer, former Instructor, and our club's chief cook and bottle washer but I'm closer now than I've ever been to washing my hands and walking away from the organization.

JR
Now you see the disillusionment that happened to me. A decades-long member, supporter, participant and proponent of USHGA/PA, it became evident that the Ass. had become a self-perpetuating bureaucracy intent on promoting itself to the detriment of hang gliding. The Ass. in its arrogance believed it WAS hang gliding, and that hang gliding couldn't survive without it. The ever-increasing burdens of regulations and fees strangled hang gliding growth, but USHPA didn't care because they were enjoying the boon of memberships $$$$$ from the new sport of paragliding. I believe the beginning of the end was when USHGA first hired a businessman to be Executive Director (Jerry Bruning if my recollection is accurate) instead of an actual pilot. First it became literally impossible to become a certified instructor or tandem pilot because the Ass. enacted regulatory requirements, yet not the infrastructure to enable members to fulfill those them.

The decline of the sport today gives us a clear retrospective view of how irrefutably wrong USHPA policies have been.
By bickford frederick
#401889
JR,

Thanks for doing the chapter renewal. I haven't ever paid attention to any of the chapter paperwork stuff so I don't know what that's all about. Someday I'd like to venture out to the New England area and fly some of those sites for fun.

miraclepieco etc.,

Blaming the decline of hang gliding pilots on paragliders (and USHPA policies) is dumb. That pov has done more damage over the years to the sport imo..
User avatar
By SeeMarkFly
#401896
bickford frederick wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:39 pm
miraclepieco etc.,

Blaming the decline of hang gliding pilots on paragliders (and USHPA policies) is dumb. That pov has done more damage over the years to the sport imo..
Telling pilots that their opinion is invalid has done more damage over the years to this sport imo..
User avatar
By red
#401897
SeeMarkFly wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:39 am
Telling pilots that their opinion is invalid has done more damage over the years to this sport imo..
Mark,

Image
User avatar
By DAVE 858
#401901
U guys aren’t seeing the big picture here. Fewer insured sites = lower risk. It’s complicated to renew on purpose, this is so that USHPA & the RRRG assume less risk. It really doesn’t matter if the chapters don’t renew, the members are keeping the ship afloat. When they stop renewing, which will happen when the next dues increase comes, the ship will sink.
By bickford frederick
#401909
Educate yourself by reading the information available to all members on the website.

The stuff about chapter renewal I just spent the past five minutes reading doesn't seem too complicated. I guess what JR is saying is it used to be easier than it is today.

I've been reading through past board minutes when I have time to over the past several weeks or so and it's actually interesting imo..
User avatar
By Wonder Boy
#401918
Whats available to all members and what is sent to the chapter to be filled out, signed and submitted is very time consuming.
Given all that's gone on, I understand why its like this. But please dont say it sounds easy......


USHPA Chapter Application & Renewal
Create a login to save your progress and return later.

Create an account or login
Step 1: Create Account for Save/Return
Welcome to the USHPA Online Chapter Application and Renewal. Before continuing we strongly suggest you create a log-in account so that you can save your work and return to complete it at a later time.

If you do not create an account now, you will NOT be able to save your work and return to it later.


Step 2: Gather and Update Chapter Documents
Before proceeding, you should review all of the information in the Chapter Renewal/Application Worksheet and Chapter Report materials emailed to renewing Chapters. Then make markups and notes of any changes. New Chapters will need to complete ALL sections of the Renewal/Application Outline and this form so that USHPA can properly evaluate your application.
Information and documentation to gather and update in order to complete this form:
click on highlighted links for document templates

Chapter Renewal/Application Worksheet (fillable pdf of this online form)
Chapter Report updates
Chapter Roster
Chapter Bylaws
Chapter Site Risk Management Plan annual review for each Chapter managed site:
Chapter Managed Sites and Locations Table (one for each Chapter)
Landowner Additional Insured Table (green 2nd tab in Locations Table)
USHPA_Risk_Assessment_Worksheet-v2018 (one for each Site)
Chapter Site Guides for upload or link information if website based (one for each Site)
Towing Device information

Step 3: Start Online Application/Renewal
Once you are ready and have all of your materials prepared, click Next to begin the online renewal/application.
User avatar
By mgforbes
#401936
I agree that it's more complex than it used to be, and I wish that wasn't the case. But the reason is that we're doing a MUCH more careful job of evaluating and managing risk, and to do that we have to get information that was formerly unavailable. Our previous insurers weren't reviewing chapter applications at all. As a result we had situations where there was risk which could have been avoided and accidents that need not have happened. Now, we are reviewing each and every chapter, looking through their risk management plans and asking for those plans to be updated or improved where we see problems. If this is the first time you're renewing, or adding a new site, then it's a fair amount of work. But once you've finished it the first time around, subsequent renewals should be easier since it's a matter of revising and reviewing, not doing it all from scratch. If you don't have last year's renewal documentation in hand, go get that FIRST.

The goal is fewer accidents and fewer claims against our self-insurance program. We LOST our previous insurance in significant part because of adverse claims history. We're on our own now; we're playing the game with our own money, and we succeed or fail based on how well we control risk in the future. Steve Rohrbaugh put well over a thousand hours into chapter reviews last year, and continues to work with chapters to improve their risk management plans. As we learn about ways to improve, that information gets passed back to the chapters. So far, claims under the new RRG policy have been low, which suggests that risk management is working. No doubt about it though, it requires more effort than just rubber-stamping a club roster.

We've gone to an on-line renewal system to try to make it easier to fill out the forms and submit the necessary information. If there are ways that you see those forms can be improved, let me know. I just ran through the first part of the renewal process myself to see how well it works, and it seems pretty straightforward. You do need to have your information together, and there's a PDF guide that tells you what you need to collect.

JR, if you want to give me a call to discuss renewal problems, feel free. I think you can find my phone number on line, or call the office and they'll send you to me, or PM me and I'll send you my contact info.

MGF
User avatar
By Wonder Boy
#401938
Thanks Mark,
It's a very serious topic and matter.
We're fortunate to be able to have insurance still that allows us to fly many of the sites we appreciate.
Perhaps if the seriousness was realized earlier, we wouldn't be in the situation we are.
User avatar
By SeeMarkFly
#401949
mgforbes wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:43 pm
Our previous insurers weren't reviewing chapter applications at all. As a result we had situations where there was.........accidents that need not have happened.
MGF
I could use some elaboration here. Did YOU just say that the USHpA "could" have prevented accidents but they were too busy with something else like say......a magazine? And when the RISKS caught up with the liability the insurer BAILED and left us holding the bag?
That's what it looks like from here.
User avatar
By mgforbes
#401950
No matter what I say, I'm sure there's a way you'll misinterpret it and spin it as some sort of fault of USHPA.

But to attempt to answer the question, it is true that we have not in the past done a complete and thorough job of reviewing the details of every flying site. Under our new insurance program, we are taking a much more comprehensive look at site conditions, known hazards, potential hazards and how those hazards are communicated to pilots. We are using the knowledge we have gained from past accidents to recommend changes such as signage, spectator exclusion zones, minimum rating standards, or even things like maximum height for grass at select locations. All of this is based on data we're gathering about accidents and review of past accidents and claims that have arisen from them. As an example, when you've seen several training accidents that include "tall grass grabbed base tube", you might reasonably tell instructors that the site may not be used if the grass is higher than X. Keep the training hill grass mowed, guys!

All of this review requires information, in far more detail than was formerly provided. And thus JR's complaint about how the process is so much more paperwork-intensive than it used to be. He's right, it is. But when I look at the documentation we're asking for, and the past claims history, there's a straight correlation between the two. We're asking because we know that incidents have happened in the past, and we want to head them off in the future. Our past history suggests that the process we used to use, leaving it at the local club level without extra oversight, wasn't working. So we're changing that process and adding oversight, and so far the accident statistics indicate that it's helping.

MGF
User avatar
By Underdog
#401951
"Complexity is helping" The words of a true insider.

Since all this inter-relates Mark could you please respond to this.

magentabluesky wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:02 pm
mgforbes wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:17 pm
The regulations are voluntary; you don't have to belong to USHPA to fly a hang glider.
The USHPA is not a regulatory agency and does not have regulations. The USHPA has bylaws and sop’s. Yes, membership in the USHPA is voluntary. The only regulatory agency in the United States with regard to airspace and licensing of airmen is the FAA. The regulations by FAA are manditory, Title 14, Part 103.

Law vs. Bylaw
mgforbes wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:17 pm
And just what are those services which are provided to populous areas and commercial interests, to the presumed detriment of pilots like you out in the boonies? Are you not getting something that other members do?
For one, there are no commercial interests in Hang Gliding by definition. Part 103 flying is defined by the FAA as sport and recreation. There may be some in the Hang Gliding community who would like to promote the commercialism of Hang Gliding in an attempt into making it something it just is not by definition. By rule of Federal Law Commercial Hang Gliding does not exist in the United States.

What the remote Montana Hang Glider Pilot is going to get by those seeking to commercialize hang gliding is a revision of Part 103 making his flying more complicated and restrictive. It will be the same for the vast majority of the Southern California Pilots (populous areas) who follow the letter and intent of Part 103 without exemptions. They just walk off the mountain solo.

Property Liability protection for recreational users should be celebrated as an added protection in not having to use our liability insurance. The USHPA should be promoting those laws minimizing the need for additional insurance.

Michael Grisham

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