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User avatar
By FMAN
#222229
This park was gazetted as a national park in 1890. It is world famous for its rugged terrain, waterfall and century-old pine trees It covers 1200 sq km and the "fire" waterfall of El Capitan is one of the most spectacular of all scenery.
The spectacular view of the waterfall is created by the reflection of sunlight hitting the falling water at a specific angle. This rare sight can only be seen at a 2-week period towards the end of February. To photograph this rare event, photographers would often have to wait and endure years of patience in order to capture them. The reason is because its appearance depend on a few natural phenomenons occurring at the same time and luck.
1st, Is the formation of the waterfall - The water is formed by the melting of snow and ice at the top of the mountain. It melts between the month of December and January and by the end of February there might not have much snow left to melt.
2nd, is the specific angle of the sun-ray hitting the falling water - The sun's position must be exactly at a particular spot in the sky. This occurs only in the month of February and at the short hours of dusk. If it is a day full of clouds or something blocking the sun, you can only take pictures of your own sorry faces on the waterfall. It coincides with the fact that the weather in the National Park at that time of the year is often volatile and unpredictable. It compounds the difficulty of getting these pictures.
Someone did, and we all get to see it !!!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20276
Jason wrote:Came home for the holidays. Drove up to the 600 yesterday and didn't fly due to high winds/rain

Today I woke up to blue skies. Called the top of the Sled and was hearing sw at 12...sounds good. Load up the old senseless and drive up the the 300....the road up to the 600 is too wet. So I decide to huff it up.

Set up the glider and take a look at whats going on. we see some birds working but not doing too well. Up higher it looks great. Down low its going to require some good timing. I stand on launch hooked in for a while. and then I see a bird to my right turning (I was launching south off the 6). I take off and turn to go join the vulture. Its tight. and i'm not gaining much. I open up my turn. and try and ridge soar the south portion of the takeoff. get a bump. do another 360 that is loosing. I see two vultures south and above my turning and climbing good. I go for it. Aiming for the left side of their turn so I can do a right turn into it away from the hill.

As I apprach under the two vultures I haven't felt it yet... but know its off to my right and turn into it. THERE IT IS. I do a full climbing turn. and just keep on turning. I'm getting 300 up and scream with joy. IM OUTTA HERE

About 600 feet over takeoff I catch up to a hawk thats thermaling and being chased by a falcon....They dont seem to mind me flying right behind them as they do their dance right in front of me (unfortunately my gopro wasn't recording..I think it it a 2gb limit or something). Now I'm about 600ft over the 1200 and then above the top. At cloudbase. I make my way back to the 1750 launch. and start hopping ridges to mission.

I get a up a bit and but I'm not getting above takeoff anymore and head from about half way to mission back to takeoff at Ed Levin. I find two redtails turning and join them. I'm getting cold...no gloves...no barmitts. and just a t shirt and long sleeve shirt....I button up the neck on my shirt as I'm turning with the two red tails....Then I hear something barking/squelling at me....Im looking all over for these redtails thinking I might have invaded their turf....I can't see anything...Then I see it...a coyote a few hundred feet below me barking right at me....


I decide....screw it....I can make it to mission easy....even if Im only just above takeoff.....

So i go....I get to the point that I'm clear off all the ridges and have the LZ at mission on easy glide....and point back to the peak....find a thermal going up and it drifts me into the peak.....I get there and get into the ridge lift and its EASY now....I climb up over the peak to 2700+ feet. There are some folks on top looking at me....I buzz them and climb up again

Now I'm REALLY getting cold...and See a HG truck coming up the back road to mission. I decide to topland because I have barmitts in my harness (of course if I had put these on at the start I would have sunk out right?)

So 44 minutes after taking off at the 600 ft at the Sled I land on top at mission. put bar mits on and borrow Roys phone to call my parents house...tell them that I intend to fly back to ed levin....

Of course now i have barmits....I take off. get about 200 feet over takeoff and move back to the peak...I get drilled...I move out in front. not doing well there either. I fly back in front of takeoff to the slide. DOWN DOWN DOWN.....

18 minutes after takeing off I land into a south wind at Mission.....Thats what I get for flying with barmitts. Still 2 good flights on my old glider. at my home sites on a beautiful day with a low cloud base and raptors all over the sky and sunshine with puffy cus and getting to cloudbase. Not much to complain about when your first flight on your old bird ends with you landing cuz your cold after 44 minutes softly at another takeoff over 4 miles away and 750 feet higher



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User avatar
By astronaut
#242691
Jason wrote:in the contract it specifies royalties to be paid if seedwings europe uses the name Seedwings......if Bob has a problem with it......he has a written agreement and can do something about it


for all i know Seedwings Europe offered royalties and Bob refused them...

hell for all i know.....Bob himself violated the contract......


if they are doing something illegal.....then it is up to Bob and Bob alone to do something about it......

until then...its unproven allegation.....and it will never be proven in a court of law unless bob steps up.....

if he doesn't....my speculation is either his case is week, or he just doesn't care


either way.....Seedwings Europe is producing new/modern gliders that are actually competitive in the price/performance market

7k for a kingposted glider......is not a competitive product....I can buy a T2 for 1000 dollars less with way more performance.....and pick it up sooner, and have parts available anywhere in the country
Here is what I heard.

An employee from Seedwings US came to Seedwings Europe to teach them to make sails.

Later Seedwings US refused to expand the product line an only offered the glider in one size although the European market were demaning different sizes of the same glider.

The Bangheri brothers together with the Seedwings US employee developed a new and smaller version of the Sensor. The first so called "self developed" glider.

They offered it back to Seedwings US for them to manufacture but they refused.

The contract ended and Seedwings Europe decided to become independent.

They had a contract in which they were offered to continue using the Seedwings name if they in return paid a royalty.

The Bangheri brothers now had a 6 year old successful company based on the Seedwings name. So they offered to pay royalty but Mr. Trampenau refused to receive it and said they couldn't use the name. But according to his own contract they could if they just paid.

So they build their company around the name Seedwings. They did so because they had a contract saying they could continue using the name by paying royalty. And when they wanted to it was refused. So Mr. Trampenau somewhat broke the contract himself.

So I guess they went their seperate ways with their two different approaches to how to meet market demand. It's pretty obvious today who made the right business decision.

At least that's what I heard.
User avatar
By FMAN
#242729
astronaut wrote:
Jason wrote:in the contract it specifies royalties to be paid if seedwings europe uses the name Seedwings......if Bob has a problem with it......he has a written agreement and can do something about it


for all i know Seedwings Europe offered royalties and Bob refused them...

hell for all i know.....Bob himself violated the contract......


if they are doing something illegal.....then it is up to Bob and Bob alone to do something about it......

until then...its unproven allegation.....and it will never be proven in a court of law unless bob steps up.....

if he doesn't....my speculation is either his case is week, or he just doesn't care


either way.....Seedwings Europe is producing new/modern gliders that are actually competitive in the price/performance market

7k for a kingposted glider......is not a competitive product....I can buy a T2 for 1000 dollars less with way more performance.....and pick it up sooner, and have parts available anywhere in the country
Here is what I heard.

An employee from Seedwings US came to Seedwings Europe to teach them to make sails.

Later Seedwings US refused to expand the product line an only offered the glider in one size although the European market were demaning different sizes of the same glider.

The Bangheri brothers together with the Seedwings US employee developed a new and smaller version of the Sensor. The first so called "self developed" glider.

They offered it back to Seedwings US for them to manufacture but they refused.

The contract ended and Seedwings Europe decided to become independent.

They had a contract in which they were offered to continue using the Seedwings name if they in return paid a royalty.

The Bangheri brothers now had a 6 year old successful company based on the Seedwings name. So they offered to pay royalty but Mr. Trampenau refused to receive it and said they couldn't use the name. But according to his own contract they could if they just paid.

So they build their company around the name Seedwings. They did so because they had a contract saying they could continue using the name by paying royalty. And when they wanted to it was refused. So Mr. Trampenau somewhat broke the contract himself.

So I guess they went their seperate ways with their two different approaches to how to meet market demand. It's pretty obvious today who made the right business decision.

At least that's what I heard.


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0
Sorenladegaard: The current designs from Seedwings Europe have nothing to do with the Sensor series and are completely new designs


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About the company
The company Seedwings Europe was founded in 1987 by brothers Andreas & Manfred Bangheri. The company started by producing gliders on license for US company Seedwings. During the first three years the sails were imported from the USA and the frames build in Austria.

In 1989 Bob Shuttle came to Tyrol in Austria for three years teaching Manfred Bangheri all about the art of sailmaking. In the beginning the Sensor 510 A/B/D/E were produced in Angath near Wörgl in Austria.

As the European market became increasingly different from the US the demand for different models started to rise. As a result in 1992 the cooperation with Seedwings in the US ended and Seedwings Europe became an independent company. Furthermore in 1992 Seedwings Europe released its first self-developed glider the Sensor 610.

In the following years Seedwings Europe developed a total of 20 different models that are all DHV certified.

In 2004 Andreas Bangheri left Seedwings Europe. Manfred Bangheri remained as owner/manager in the restructured corporation.

All production, repairs and checks are performed on-site at the factory in Schlitters. Repairs are also available for people in other countries who send in their gliders.

1992: Sensor 610
1993: Sensor 611
1994: Merlin 133
1995: Merlin 148
1996: Merlin 158
1997: Viper 159
1998: Skyfloater 195
1999: Viagro 14
2000: Kestrel 133/148/158
2002: Vertigo 13/15
2004: Spyder 14/15
2005: Spyder 12.5
2006: Funky 15/17
2007: Space 16
2008: Space 14
2010: Crossover 14/15

Information according to E-commerce and media law
Media owner: Seedwings Flugsport GmbH
Registered office: Schlitters 63, A6262 Sclitters, Austria
Company matter: Trading limited to retail of hang gliders and accessories
Commercial registry number: 242480p
Court of jurustiction: Landesgericht Innsbruck
Government agency acc. to ECG: Bezirkshauptmannschaft Schwaz
© 1987 - 2011 Seedwings Flugsport GmbH


Spyder 15 with 550 flights!

Seedwings Europe is pleased to report about a Spyder with more than 550 flights.

In mid-January 2011 Seedwings owner and founder Manfred Bangheri congratulated Mr. Martin Bardill when he brought his Spyder 15 in for a mandatory 2-year service check. His Spyder was manufactured in 2004 and has now served him for an impressive 550 flights.

Apart from the mandatory replacement of flying wires and tip wands there was no remarks on glider.

We thank Mr. Martin Bardill for his commitment to Seedwings and hope he will enjoy another 550 flights on his Spyder.

Manfred Bangheri.

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Furthermore in 1992 Seedwings Europe released its first self-developed glider the Sensor 610
- This is the statement that causes the most confusion for me. Did Seedwings Europe really develop the 610?
And here
In 1989 Bob Shuttle came to Tyrol in Austria for three years teaching Manfred Bangheri all about the art of sailmaking.

It is my understanding the Bangheri's lived in Santa Barbara for a few months to learn sailmaking from Seedwings Inc.

These photographs are of a 611, Merlin, and Viper from Delta Club 82.
http://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/f12e ... europe.htm















There are many forum members who know more about this than I do. My therapist said I shouldn't worry about it. :mrgreen:
User avatar
By FMAN
#253812
noman3 wrote:would you say that its fair that seedwings Europe uses bobs name for there product,even though they dont have permission.Seems to me that allot of people dont care that these guys are ripping off a fellow American.
I spoke with Bob Trampenau about Seedwings Europe quite a bit in person and on the phone a couple of years ago and have been observing this.

A few years before that (2004) my uncle told me there was another Seedwings ran by two brothers in Europe.

This has some similarity to SG feeling unpleasant that the name Speed-Gliding could be referred to a Speedwing.

I first saw hanggliding in the early 90's and didn't start until 2004, so I try not to just jump without having my bearings, I have been known to take a false step though.
User avatar
By FMAN
#253815
The Bangheri brothers using Seedwings name is like the gay community "taking our rainbows" :mrgreen: :owned:
User avatar
By astronaut
#253822
FMAN wrote:http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0
Sorenladegaard: The current designs from Seedwings Europe have nothing to do with the Sensor series and are completely new designs


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In all fairness the gliders depicted above are 14-19 years old designs. And even the Merlin (the middle one from around 1995) was a 100% Seedwings Euro design - though they seem to have kept the tail fin which they haven't used since 1998. The later Merlins came without the fin.

The profile was designed by Austrian competition pilot Martin Jursa who was also an engineer in aerodynamics. I got this info from a review in a magazine. I think it was by Dennis Pagen.

Todays Euro Seedwings are completely independent designs. Especially since they make 4 different wings including a floater which US Seedwings don't.

EDIT: Found the review:
http://www.drageflyvning.dk/tests/Seedw ... %20133.pdf

Anyway.....in the US noone has heard of the Euro company and vice versa. So no harm is done these days :)

EDIT AGAIN: The Merlin depicted in the review doesn't have a fin. I wonder why there is one on the above photo?
User avatar
By FMAN
#253826
Like this 5 year old thread?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=219

In all fairness the gliders depicted above are 14-19 years old designs. And even the Merlin (the middle one from around 1995) was a 100% Seedwings Euro design - though they seem to have kept the tail fin which they haven't used since 1998. The later Merlins came without the fin.

The profile was designed by Austrian competition pilot Martin Jursa who was also an engineer in aerodynamics. I got this info from a review in a magazine. I think it was by Dennis Pagen.

Todays Euro Seedwings are completely independent designs. Especially since they make 4 different wings including a floater which US Seedwings don't.

EDIT: Found the review:
http://www.drageflyvning.dk/tests/Seedw ... %20133.pdf

Anyway.....in the US noone has heard of the Euro company and vice versa. So no harm is done these days :)

EDIT AGAIN: The Merlin depicted in the review doesn't have a fin. I wonder why there is one on the above photo?
Last edited by FMAN on Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By FMAN
#253829
It's very plain to see what's going on by spending a couple hours researching the topic and knowing some hanggliding history huh?

One good thing about the world wide web among others. :popcorn: :mrgreen:
User avatar
By J Fritsche
#253835
I know little-to-nothing about this Seedwings Europe vs. Seedwings USA debate, but I can report this:
I very recently had a sail problem (long story that I won't bother you with), and I live an hour away from Bob Trampenau, the true original Seedwings guy. I went to him with my sail (not a Seedwing) for repairs, and he did the repairing/sewing while I left him alone for a couple hours. He fixed the problem, was very easy and pleasant to deal with, and charged me a very reasonable fee.
My final thoughts after this experience and my knowledge of his history: What a good guy. One of those mad-genious types. I have no idea if he has any current plan regarding the world of modern hang gliders, but I'm convinced that he's bright, wise, and capable.
User avatar
By FMAN
#255387
Seedwings Inc. is trying to put a photo album together and needs help, if you have anything sent it to Bob please.

I'm updating my 610 CF and will have some soon, really excited about the new NT air foil. My sail was made in 98 and is in good condition still. It'll be like new but still has bungee cord for the battens, no sense in updating to flip-tips on a sail that only has a couple hundred hours left. :mrgreen:
User avatar
By FMAN
#255441
lostgriz wrote:
FMAN wrote::evil: soaring, it would not feel good for me, but I would have to take a knife to it if it were in front of me, sorry... :crazy:

(seems like a good idea from here)
I don't know all of the politics in this little spat (neither do you I suspect), but if you took a knife to my glider (whoever made it) you would get the chance to hear one of your own bones break.:thumbsup: It's louder than you might think.
What would be my reason for destroying a Seedwing Europe glider?

To eliminate confusion involving a liability lawsuit as the result of an accident. :mrgreen:
User avatar
By Mavi Gogun
#255452
astronaut wrote:So they build their company around the name Seedwings. They did so because they had a contract saying they could continue using the name by paying royalty. And when they wanted to it was refused. So Mr. Trampenau somewhat broke the contract himself.
Did he? I suppose that depends on whether the contract obligated him to extend the use of the name in exchange for royalty payments, or if it only delineated the conditions for such an exchange? Are you privy to the details of the contract? If not, the assertion above is purely speculative.
User avatar
By st1lgar
#255485
So happy I'm out of this...
My glider was sold to me by

Seedwings Flugsport GmbH

So there must be 3 Companies now...
... and stay away from my glider. It's my first and I mean it!

:popcorn:
User avatar
By st1lgar
#255495
have no idea but I see no flugsport in the pdf...
The owner is the same as in the pdf though

:roll:
User avatar
By psuguru
#255500
I was talking to a guy in the hangar the other day and said, "You know, I just couldn't bring myself to own something called a "Funky""
He said, "Yeah, I know what you mean, it must be a Germanic thing:- Ja, Das ist schwer kool. And what about that transvestite themed glider?"
We all looked at him :shock:
"You know! The Gender Bender"
:shock: ?
"The wossname! The Crossover!"
:lol:
User avatar
By peanuts
#255501
i saw one of their wings couple years ago. something called "viagro". the owner had tampered with the name on the wing, substituting one vowel for another, and added a large phallic depiction.
User avatar
By FMAN
#255506
It's almost the same situation as originally, SWEurope just orders sails from Pause Segel instead of Seedwings Inc.

With Seedwings Europe selling beginner/intermediate wings and Atos selling intermediate/advanced wings that makes the Europeans stronger than any other country in hang gliding (regarding recreational pilots).
User avatar
By Mavi Gogun
#255510
Mavi Gogun wrote:
astronaut wrote:So they build their company around the name Seedwings. They did so because they had a contract saying they could continue using the name by paying royalty. And when they wanted to it was refused. So Mr. Trampenau somewhat broke the contract himself.
Did he? I suppose that depends on whether the contract obligated him to extend the use of the name in exchange for royalty payments, or if it only delineated the conditions for such an exchange? Are you privy to the details of the contract? If not, the assertion above is purely speculative.
After reading the contract, it is clear that extending the use of the brand name would be done only at the pleasure of Seedwings/Trampenau - not only was extending the use of the names and designs not compulsory, the contract clearly states the conditions under which rights to name and manufacture would be withdrawn - which very specifically included the manufacture of different models or sizes. The contract is explicit. Those signing the contract have the onus of demonstrating why they should not be held to the agreement.

We're a relatively small community - if I were to rent my glider to another pilot who then steals it and turns up at another site, I would expect -at the very least- locals to ban the pilot. A manufacturer is different only in scale.

Perhaps one might feel that the conditions of the loan was unfair, or that the value of the property stolen was insignificant - regardless, that was for the signatories to reject before agreeing to the terms.

This thread is the first I have heard of any of this drama.
User avatar
By astronaut
#255514
Mavi Gogun wrote:Are you privy to the details of the contract? If not, the assertion above is purely speculative.
Yup! You're absolutely right. And everything in this debate is speculative. Because noone knows the details about what happened.

It's fair for everyone to participate in the debate.

But what annoys me is that a handful of people on this forum hijacks every single thread where people who fly Seedwings Europe gliders mentions their glider. As a result this forum ends up being somewhat hostile to european pilots. Many pilots in Europe fly Seedwings Europe gliders.

I read in another post that "If a couple of pilots order gliders at the same time you may get your glider in 6 months".

In essence Seedwings Inc. is not really competing in the hang gliding market anymore. You cannot call 2 gliders a year a "manufacturer". It's more like home brew :)

There may be something to this whole contract thing. But to claim that Seedwings Euro is benefitting from Bob Trampenau's name is not correct. Actually he may be benefitting from them as they keep his name alive by making 100-200 gliders a year + harnesses. And deliver in 4 weeks.

Please, voice your opinion about the contract/deal thing. But don't hijack threads where happy pilots post their thoughts and pics of their beloved gliders.

.....this is getting boring......
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