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User avatar
By FMAN
#255516
Furthermore in 1992 Seedwings Europe released its first self-developed glider the Sensor 610.
:roflcat:
User avatar
By FMAN
#255518
astronaut wrote:It's fair for everyone to participate in the debate.

But what annoys me is that a handful of people on this forum hijacks every single thread where people who fly Seedwings Europe gliders mentions their glider. As a result this forum ends up being somewhat hostile to european pilots. Many pilots in Europe fly Seedwings Europe gliders.

Please, voice your opinion about the contract/deal thing. But don't hijack threads where happy pilots post their thoughts and pics of their beloved gliders.
:goodidea: :ditto:
User avatar
By st1lgar
#255520
:popcorn:
User avatar
By astronaut
#255881
Just out of curiousity I googled "Seedwings" and found this:
http://www.seedwings.de

It seems to be a German company specializing in making stickers, streamers etc. for cars and signs and so on.

Nothing to do with hanggliding :) Though their company logo looks like a man spreading his arms as if he had wings.

I've seen that logo printed on the undersurface of several Seedwings Europe gliders like this one:
http://www.seedwings.at/en/hanggliders/ ... pyder.html

:roll: :wink:
User avatar
By FMAN
#255926
Hopefully to give some clarity with this discussion, here is a quote from the OzReport forum.
The world hang gliding community from the early days of modern hang gliding strives for and prides itself on self-regulation and we encourage self-responsibility in all our actions. The inherent nature of hang glider pilots is to be free yet we act in accordance with natural laws and respect universal values that transcend regulation.

I made a good faith agreement with Andreas and Manfred Bangheri of Tyrol, Austria who were Sensor dealers at the time to license the manufacture of the popular Sensor 510. Additionally, a manufacturing license was agreed upon for the all new Sensor 610-144 size only being developed by myself and my team in Goleta, California. All sail and airframe technologies and assistance along with the agreed payment of monies were completed. I arranged and delivered technical service to Andreas and Manfred Bangheri helping them to become a hang glider manufacturer. Our agreement has a need to respect tradenames and it is common law that continues following their agreement with me that they essentially agreed to forever respect the issue of tradenames and logo’s, even if technology exchange ended. Our agreement and contract is viewable here:

http://tinyurl.com/Seedwings1992contract

My company with its copyrighted tradename, product name and logo, Seedwings and Sensor, originating in 1975, has devoted 100% of all profits to the development of the modern hang glider and I personally have devoted my entire professional life to its scientific development. In such a small community as ours where the sports survival depends upon mutual respect, cooperation and friendly competition we should not be infringing upon each other’s copyrighted trade names. Andreas and Manfred Bangheri are wrongfully using without any agreement what so ever my company name after the contract period ended. There is no difference if Icaro was continuing to infringe upon Moyes name or the former Wills Wing Europe continuing to use their names long after their technical exchange with Moyes or Wills Wing had ended.

I respectfully ask the world hang gliding community, all hang gliding professionals, associations, publishers and alike not to use my company name except in reference to my products and in regard to communications with me, (Bob) Robert Trampenau. As for laws, in the USA, any product sold or bearing the name of another company can be immediately taken possession of by local authorities because it’s wrong. Andreas and Manfred Bangheri and their company is misleading the hang gliding public and causing confusion in product identification. I have no connection with and I am not in any way in control of or responsible for Andreas and Manfred Bangheri’s quality control, airworthiness or independent product development.

I ask Andreas and Manfred Bangheri and their company publicly to stop using my names, logo and photographs in connection with any product they make, distribute, advertise or deliver and change their company’s name now. The sport of hang gilding’s best route is to maintain respect for trade names. Our community could better support any company when they are playing the game fairly and with respect. The late Rob Kells at my request in the mid 90’s stood up in my defense and made several phone calls to US concerns expressing the wrongful and illegal use of my trade name. Rob’s help is greatly appreciated to this day.

Bob Trampenau
Seedwings

Attached is a photo found on Andreas and Manfred Bangheri's old website a number of years ago that I took of RCDave flying a topless Sensor 610 CF 144 at the Eliminator launch in Santa Barbara

Image
If you have difficulty understing this because of translation issues please speak up. :mrgreen:
User avatar
By astronaut
#260975
noman3 wrote:would you say that its fair that seedwings Europe uses bobs name for there product,even though they dont have permission.Seems to me that allot of people dont care that these guys are ripping off a fellow American.
Jason wrote: Has he formally requested royalties?
The Bangheri brothers DID pay him royalties. But Bob doesn't mention that when he claims that the Bangheri brothers "stole" his name and used it without permission.

Bob didn't want to produce different sizes of his gliders. But there was a market demand for that. So the Bangheri brothers developed a smaller version of the 610 that they produced on licence at the time. I think they named it Sensor 611. The development was done together with a Seedwings Inc. employee that worked in Austria for a few years. They even offered it back to Bob for him to produce too but he refused.

They then went on to pay him well over FIFTY THOUSAND us dollars (worth even more back then) and they continued to use the Seedwings name.

But somehow Bob still claims that Seedwings Flugsport GmbH violated the contact and didn't pay him any money. Well, that's simply just not true.

Maybe he is just filled with envy that they went on to develope a glider in every performance catagory, design their own harnesses etc. For a few years (mid 2000's ?) Bob hardly produced any gliders at all.

According to the Seedwings Inc. homepage Bob has produced 1200 gliders. The Bangheri brothers have sold more than 3000 and they haven't existed for nearly as long.

Bob doesn't tell the whole story. The Bangheri brothers are decent guys. They DID pay a large sum of money and have rightfully continued to use the name and become one of Europe's most successfull manufactures.
User avatar
By FMAN
#263385
It would be interesting to hear from Manfred himself instead of rumors (if not more blatant lies).
User avatar
By astronaut
#263410
FMAN wrote:It would be interesting to hear from Manfred himself instead of rumors (if not more blatant lies).
My last post is not based on rumours. I friend of mine is in close contact with Manfred Bangheri. And the quote about paying more than 50.000 dollars in royalty comes straight from Manfred.
User avatar
By Mavi Gogun
#263755
astronaut wrote:The Bangheri brothers DID pay him royalties. But Bob doesn't mention that when he claims that the Bangheri brothers "stole" his name and used it without permission.
The contract is clear - there was no implication that royalties payed for what was under contract conveyed ownership of the brand. On the contrary, the contract very specifically spoke to the conditions which would result in extended rights being revoked- and that included name use.
astronaut wrote:Bob didn't want to produce different sizes of his gliders. But there was a market demand for that. So the Bangheri brothers developed a smaller version of the 610 that they produced on licence at the time. I think they named it Sensor 611. The development was done together with a Seedwings Inc. employee that worked in Austria for a few years. They even offered it back to Bob for him to produce too but he refused.
The contract very specifically forbade this activity- and delineated consequence for it. If any part was dissatisfied with those terms, they shouldn't have signed the contract.
astronaut wrote:But somehow Bob still claims that Seedwings Flugsport GmbH violated the contact and didn't pay him any money. Well, that's simply just not true.
The contract was clearly violated according to your description of the events. I've heard no claim that money never changed hands. Your suggestion, though, is that Trampenau accepted money for something that he went to pains to specifically forbid in contract. That seems fantastic- at best.
astronaut wrote:Maybe he is just filled with envy that they went on to develope a glider in every performance catagory, design their own harnesses etc. For a few years (mid 2000's ?) Bob hardly produced any gliders at all.

According to the Seedwings Inc. homepage Bob has produced 1200 gliders. The Bangheri brothers have sold more than 3000 and they haven't existed for nearly as long.
Are you qualified to peer into Trampenau's hart, glean truth? Are you suggesting that the contract violation was righteous, based on criteria arbitrated by you, or is there another contract that extend the rights that you say Manfred claims?
astronaut wrote:
FMAN wrote:It would be interesting to hear from Manfred himself instead of rumors (if not more blatant lies).
My last post is not based on rumours. I friend of mine is in close contact with Manfred Bangheri. And the quote about paying more than 50.000 dollars in royalty comes straight from Manfred.
"I heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy" is the definition of a rumor. Disseminating such is the definition of a rumor monger. Support your claims, Astronaut- produce the contract, with signatures, that extended the right to develop alternate gliders and continue producing licensed gliders under the Seedwings brand. Without that, your characterizations of Trampenau amount to slander. Since you have crossed the line from stating opinion to asserting 'fact', it's time to put up or shut up, me thinks...

Astronaut, your arguments are specious. I had not heard of the these events until you brought them to my attention, and I've never met Trampenau, don't own one of his gliders. I've found nothing to support any of your assertions- rather, I've found evidence to the contrary. The vast majority of your posts to this forum relate directly to Seedwings Europe. Your bias is clear.
User avatar
By FMAN
#263757
Mavi Gogun wrote: After reading the contract, it is clear that extending the use of the brand name would be done only at the pleasure of Seedwings/Trampenau - not only was extending the use of the names and designs not compulsory, the contract clearly states the conditions under which rights to name and manufacture would be withdrawn - which very specifically included the manufacture of different models or sizes. The contract is explicit. Those signing the contract have the onus of demonstrating why they should not be held to the agreement.
Image
User avatar
By FMAN
#263758
astronaut wrote:Bob didn't want to produce different sizes of his gliders.
Actually, the 152/610 was built in late 92' and the 135/610 in 1996 and flaps and "very low drag truncated streamlined tubing" were developed in late 93' and 96' respectively.
User avatar
By FMAN
#263759
Holger wrote:
Jason wrote:Has he formally requested royalties?
Yes, he requested royalties in '93 shortly before the terms of the agreement expired.
Royalties were not requested nor received.
User avatar
By astronaut
#263761
Mavi Gogun wrote:I heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy" is the definition of a rumor. Disseminating such is the definition of a rumor monger.
So if a close friend of mine knows Manfred personally and have spent several days with him in his workshop - then comes back to tell me in-depth details of Manfred's point of view - that's "only a rumour"?
Mavi Gogun wrote:I've never met Trampenau, don't own one of his gliders."
Then what qualifies you to know anything about what actually happened?
Mavi Gogun wrote:The vast majority of your posts to this forum relate directly to Seedwings Europe. Your bias is clear.
The same can be said about you with regards to Seedwings Inc.

I have even spoken to former employees of Mr. Trampenau who off the record tells me that there IS two sides to this story and that the Bangheri brothers aren't the bad guys. But these former employees won't come forward with their story because they don't want to jepadise their friendship with Bob. I fully respect that although I could use their information to stop this argument once and for all :)

There's a handful of pilots in the US who simply won't accept that there may be two sides to the story.

I have personally contacted Manfred Bangheri via mail and asked why he doesn't publish his view on the whole thing? His reply was - just like I stated above - that there's a handful of US pilots who keep this story alive. And no matter what they are told and no matter what is said in favour of the Bangheri brother they just won't listen.

Manfred also stated that The success of Seedwings Europe caused production, development ect. between the two companies to develop well beyond what was written in the contract. Later the despute was caused by things NOT written in the contract. You could say that the contact was indeed extended by a "genteman's agreement" and then later Bob pulled out, only referred to the written contract and forgot the gentleman part.

Manfred Bangheri can't be bothered anymore. He said that Seedwings Inc. only covers the US market and hardly anyone in the US has really heard of Seedwings Europe - and vice versa in Europe.

Bob runs his own business and Manfred runs his own business.
User avatar
By FMAN
#263763
The same can be said about you with regards to Seedwings Inc.

I have even spoken to former employees of Mr. Trampenau who off the record tells me that there IS two sides to this story and that the Bangheri brothers aren't the bad guys. But these former employees won't come forward with their story because they don't want to jepadise their friendship with Bob. I fully respect that although I could use their information to stop this argument once and for all

There's a handful of pilots in the US who simply won't accept that there may be two sides to the story.

I have personally contacted Manfred Bangheri via mail and asked why he doesn't publish his view on the whole thing? His reply was - just like I stated above - that there's a handful of US pilots who keep this story alive. And no matter what they are told and no matter what is said in favour of the Bangheri brother they just won't listen.

Manfred also stated that The success of Seedwings Europe caused production, development ect. between the two companies to develop well beyond what was written in the contract. Later the despute was caused by things NOT written in the contract. You could say that the contact was indeed extended by a "genteman's agreement" and then later Bob pulled out, only referred to the written contract and forgot the gentleman part.

Manfred Bangheri can't be bothered anymore. He said that Seedwings Inc. only covers the US market and hardly anyone in the US has really heard of Seedwings Europe - and vice versa in Europe.

Bob runs his own business and Manfred runs his own business.
:spam:
Last edited by FMAN on Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
By astronaut
#263764
FMAN wrote::spam:
That post exactly proves my point about that handful of US pilots. Thanks.
User avatar
By FMAN
#263765
astronaut wrote: I have even spoken to former employees of Mr. Trampenau who off the record tells me that there IS two sides to this story and that the Bangheri brothers aren't the bad guys. But these former employees won't come forward with their story because they don't want to jepadise their friendship with Bob. I fully respect that although I could use their information to stop this argument once and for all :)
Friendship?
Manfred also stated that The success of Seedwings Europe caused production, development ect. between the two companies to develop well beyond what was written in the contract. Later the despute was caused by things NOT written in the contract. You could say that the contact was indeed extended by a "genteman's agreement" and then later Bob pulled out, only referred to the written contract and forgot the gentleman part.
Referring to the Seedwings Flugsport GmbH product line after separation before the sail work was outsourced to Pause Segel; Apparently the Bangheri brothers wanted mass production and quality suffered.
Manfred Bangheri can't be bothered anymore. He said that Seedwings Inc. only covers the US market and hardly anyone in the US has really heard of Seedwings Europe - and vice versa in Europe. Bob runs his own business and Manfred runs his own business.
Typical response from a confronted abuser, denial and downplay.
User avatar
By astronaut
#263767
FMAN wrote:Friendship?
Do you agree 100% with everything your friends have done all their lives? Can't you be friends with Bob and still think to yourself "I wouldn't have done that" or "Maybe that wasn't the right thing to do" etc. ?
FMAN wrote: ..... before the sail work was outsourced to Pause Segel; Apparently the Bangheri brothers wanted mass production and quality suffered
So mass production means quality suffers? So those 650 gliders that came out of Wills Wing's factory last year are of poor quality simply because they "mass produce" and are the best selling glider manufacturer in the world - compared to making 5 gliders per year as others do?

Many Seedwings Europe gliders still come with a sail made inhouse by Seedwings Europe. They make damn fine sails.

I haven't heard bad things about Pause Segel. Icaro2000 use it for their Laminar series of gliders too.
User avatar
By Mavi Gogun
#263769
astronaut wrote:
Mavi Gogun wrote:I heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy" is the definition of a rumor. Disseminating such is the definition of a rumor monger.
So if a close friend of mine knows Manfred personally and have spent several days with him in his workshop - then comes back to tell me in-depth details of Manfred's point of view - that's "only a rumour"?
The statements are twice removed from the source. It leaves no way for the reader to discern the noise/slant/agenda/inaccuracy introduced by you or your friend; it discounts the contribution of tone and context for accurately conveying meaning; it provides no insight as to what Manfred's concern was when speaking to your friend. It means that when you speak with what seams like defensive certainty and discount what should be obvious concerns for any reader attempting to discern truth, that your voice becomes highly suspect.
astronaut wrote:
Mavi Gogun wrote:I've never met Trampenau, don't own one of his gliders."
Then what qualifies you to know anything about what actually happened
I've made no claims- only observations of what is plain in the contract.
astronaut wrote:
Mavi Gogun wrote:The vast majority of your posts to this forum relate directly to Seedwings Europe. Your bias is clear.
The same can be said about you with regards to Seedwings Inc.
No, it can not: of my 400 or so posts to this venue, only a tiny fraction speak to this issue- where as the majority of yours are on this single topic, or include Seedwings Europe. If you refuse to adopt even a modicum of semantic precision, then this issue will remain cast as dueling monologues, with zero resolution.
astronaut wrote:I have even spoken to former employees of Mr. Trampenau who off the record tells me that there IS two sides to this story and that the Bangheri brothers aren't the bad guys.

There's a handful of pilots in the US who simply won't accept that there may be two sides to the story.
I haven't heard a second side to this story from you: I have heard only one side presented with certainty. This, again, gives strong cause to suspect bias. Do you actually believe that there are two sides that are equally valid? They seem to be in direct conflict. Your statement might more accurately be restated, "there are pilots who won't simplistically accept that there is only one side."

astronaut wrote:Manfred also stated that The success of Seedwings Europe caused production, development ect. between the two companies to develop well beyond what was written in the contract.


That would be the crux.

astronaut wrote:Later the despute was caused by things NOT written in the contract. You could say that the contact was indeed extended by a "genteman's agreement" and then later Bob pulled out, only referred to the written contract and forgot the gentleman part.
Seems to me the very reason for the contract was this eventuality- it defined terms under which the extension of rights could be revoked- unless amended by a subsequent contract. Why would they forgo amending the contract at a later juncture? One could speculate- but let's not: that way leads nowhere fast.

A couple of over reaching conclusions offered by the Astronaut without support: Trampenau is the bad guy, and not a gentleman. I've read some of Trampenau's position, but nothing directly from those at Seedwings Europe, so couldn't make those characterizations myself.

Step back for a moment, Astronaut, and consider how it looks from outside: one party claims contract breach, and theft, and has spoken on the topic, offered some substance- the other can't be bothered. Were the situation reversed - say, the Ukrainian firm Aeros entering into a production partnership with a US company, things souring, then protested as the US company continued to use the Aeros brand in violation of a provided contract- we would be equally skeptical, critical. "I talked to a guy, and he assures me they were right to do so" wouldn't be persuasive- and it's not here. The argument falls short of allaying concerns of injustice, and doesn't allow for a purchase decision with a clear conscious. As a practical consideration, that's what we're talking to resolve. I'm in a position where such a glider would be an option- but first I would need satisfaction on this issue to consider it. That is my interest - not partisan punditry.
User avatar
By Dan Harding
#263777
Mavi Gogun wrote:
astronaut wrote:
Mavi Gogun wrote:I heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy" is the definition of a rumor. Disseminating such is the definition of a rumor monger.
So if a close friend of mine knows Manfred personally and have spent several days with him in his workshop - then comes back to tell me in-depth details of Manfred's point of view - that's "only a rumour"?
The statements are twice removed from the source. It leaves no way for the reader to discern the noise/slant/agenda/inaccuracy introduced by you or your friend; it discounts the contribution of tone and context for accurately conveying meaning; it provides no insight as to what Manfred's concern was when speaking to your friend. It means that when you speak with what seams like defensive certainty and discount what should be obvious concerns for any reader attempting to discern truth, that your voice becomes highly suspect.
astronaut wrote:
Mavi Gogun wrote:I've never met Trampenau, don't own one of his gliders."
Then what qualifies you to know anything about what actually happened
I've made no claims- only observations of what is plain in the contract.
astronaut wrote:
Mavi Gogun wrote:The vast majority of your posts to this forum relate directly to Seedwings Europe. Your bias is clear.
The same can be said about you with regards to Seedwings Inc.
No, it can not: of my 400 or so posts to this venue, only a tiny fraction speak to this issue- where as the majority of yours are on this single topic, or include Seedwings Europe. If you refuse to adopt even a modicum of semantic precision, then this issue will remain cast as dueling monologues, with zero resolution.
astronaut wrote:I have even spoken to former employees of Mr. Trampenau who off the record tells me that there IS two sides to this story and that the Bangheri brothers aren't the bad guys.

There's a handful of pilots in the US who simply won't accept that there may be two sides to the story.
I haven't heard a second side to this story from you: I have heard only one side presented with certainty. This, again, gives strong cause to suspect bias. Do you actually believe that there are two sides that are equally valid? They seem to be in direct conflict. Your statement might more accurately be restated, "there are pilots who won't simplistically accept that there is only one side."

astronaut wrote:Manfred also stated that The success of Seedwings Europe caused production, development ect. between the two companies to develop well beyond what was written in the contract.


That would be the crux.

astronaut wrote:Later the despute was caused by things NOT written in the contract. You could say that the contact was indeed extended by a "genteman's agreement" and then later Bob pulled out, only referred to the written contract and forgot the gentleman part.
Seems to me the very reason for the contract was this eventuality- it defined terms under which the extension of rights could be revoked- unless amended by a subsequent contract. Why would they forgo amending the contract at a later juncture? One could speculate- but let's not: that way leads nowhere fast.

A couple of over reaching conclusions offered by the Astronaut without support: Trampenau is the bad guy, and not a gentleman. I've read some of Trampenau's position, but nothing directly from those at Seedwings Europe, so couldn't make those characterizations myself.

Step back for a moment, Astronaut, and consider how it looks from outside: one party claims contract breach, and theft, and has spoken on the topic, offered some substance- the other can't be bothered. Were the situation reversed - say, the Ukrainian firm Aeros entering into a production partnership with a US company, things souring, then protested as the US company continued to use the Aeros brand in violation of a provided contract- we would be equally skeptical, critical. "I talked to a guy, and he assures me they were right to do so" wouldn't be persuasive- and it's not here. The argument falls short of allaying concerns of injustice, and doesn't allow for a purchase decision with a clear conscious. As a practical consideration, that's what we're talking to resolve. I'm in a position where such a glider would be an option- but first I would need satisfaction on this issue to consider it. That is my interest - not partisan punditry.
Well said :thumbsup:
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