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By dave hopkins
#384446
3/4//16. A visiting American pilot at Valle fell out of his glider and successfully deployed his chute. landed in trees and only bruised his thigh. WOW ! luckily he recognized something was wrong and flew away from the mountain gaining clearance for deployment. Seems his extended hang strap setup failed. There was no backup. Probably a main that was sewn to the backup. I don't like that setup. Although I fly with it on my atos, sometimes.
We all know that using an extender should a temporary setup an must have a good backup. This was a loop over the main and then it had been taped with electrical tape to hold in place.
Even if you miss a loop or part of the loop slips under the tape? this setup with the tape may sustain a hang check. Maybe not a bounce hang check :goodidea: We know all this and it has been proven by dead friends that a proper hang strap set up is a must.
Any how, it's spring and time to get a new and proper hang strap if you or your friends are flying on a extender. Next pilot may not be so lucky!
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By jjcote
#384455
The pilot posted a report on our local email list. It wasn't his glider, he was renting one from the outfit in Valle, and somebody else had put on the extender.

This is important: if I'm reading his description of the setup correctly, the way the extender was put on was dead wrong. It was a loop that was put through the hang strap, and then you put the biner through both sides. (The electrical tape was presumably there so that the extender wouldn't fall off when the harness was unhooked.) The right way to use an extender is to put it through the hang strap, then put one loop through the other and pull it tight (similar to the way you attach a weak link), and hook the harness only to the long loop that's hanging down. The way it was (presumably) set up, there was the possibility of missing one of the two loops. With no tape, this would have failed a hang check, but with the tape, it could pass, and hold his weight for a few minutes (and lift-and-tug would not have caught this).

There was no backup going through the biner, and he stated right up from that this was a mistake (the hang strap may have been a sewn double as Dave suggests, but there was no backup from the hang strap to the biner). The pilot says he should have gotten another extender to use as a backup, but I'd say that's wrong, too -- a backup in that case should have gone from the keel to the biner.
User avatar
By NMERider
#384460
Thanks for the details JJ. Betty from HES once or twice told me about a fatality that resulted from using an extension loop that did not run from the biner through hang strap and back to biner. The problem was it only went from biner through hang strap and had a false lark's head hitch and did not go back to the biner. It passed the hang check test but not flight load.

The knot you are referring to is called a lark's head hitch or lark's head knot. I have a Wills Wing extension loop that mates my harnesses to any standard Wills Wing length hang strap. WW gave it to me to keep following last year's Demo Days. I use it every time I fly the Sport 2 prototype that I've been posting about.

I keep it stored inside my harness for when I need it and it goes from biner through hang straps back to biner. Yesterday I loaned it to a visiting pilot at Sylmar. I rigged it for him and treated it like I was flying the rented glider and harness myself. Another local pilot was not pleased. I explained two things:

1 - This is how the president of the HGMA had me hooking in at last year's Demo Days and I think Mike and Steve know what they're doing.

2 - By doubling the extension loop over through the hang strap you double the strength. There's no reason to use a backup extension loop any more than there's a need to use a second carabiner.

Obviously there will always be pilots who will argue both sides of this method just the old and pointless 'Aussie Method' debates and the equally pointless 'full versus open face' helmet debates. Every method of extending a hang strap has pitfalls and shortcomings. But hiding a false or incomplete lark's head hitch for an extension beneath opaque tape so you cannot verify that it's a proper hitch simply defies comprehension. There should be no critical components on a hang glider that cannot be visually inspected during pre-flight.

My own take-away from this nearly tragic event is that I will walk away from any hang glider/harness set-up I am offered or have rented if I cannot visually inspect the critical components such as this during pre-flight.

In any event there's nothing wrong with carrying a length of mountain climbing rope and knowing how to tie a double-fisherman's knot or a figure-8 follow-through, etc. and at least make your own custom backup if it helps gives peace of mind.

On a related note: I have heard complaints from pilots about the use of translucent heat shrink tubing over cable terminations. It's difficult or impossible to see whether there are any frayed strands where the cable exits the nico sleeves. At least by performing the stomp test you can establish that the side wires won't break during launch.

BTW - Do you recall the Atos accident from a few years back where the pilot broke away from the glider because his hang strap was only attached by Velcro and was not looped into a lark's head hitch around the keel? Deja Vu all over again! :roll:
User avatar
By jjcote
#384463
Yep, lark's head, and it also goes by several other names. But I figured at least some people would not be familiar with the term, so I described it with the familiar weak link example. I knew there was some other good example, but I couldn't think what it was. Backup strap attachment to keel, duh.

I didn't see the extension loop myself, so I don't know to what extent the tape hid anything. But I don't like the idea of the tape, because if it was set up like I suspect, it created the possibility of hooking into only one side and having a setup that will pass reasonable preflight testing but not actually hold your weight. (It wouldn't pass actually looking at it, of course, but it will pass hang checks and lift-and-tug.) If you've got the extender as a separate piece that you put on when you hook the harness to the glider, using no tape or zip-ties or anything, that's considerably better, because the chance of creating this situation is a lot lower. That said, it does allow for some motion of the straps, and cloth-on-cloth like that poses some risk of wear (one strap sawing through the other). With the lark's head, they're more tightly bound. The way it was set up, looped through the hang strap and then taped as a semi-permanent solution, seems like an incredibly bad idea. If it's going to be that way long enough to require tape, get the right hang strap.

The doubling of strength by doubling over the strap strikes me as irrelevant. If you're pulling enough load to break a hang strap, you're already in way serious trouble. And there's no point in making the extension stronger than the strap it's hooked into. But I agree that a backup from the hang strap to the 'biner is pointless. A backup to the keel would provide protection for something like the bolt holding the hang strap to the kingpost backing out. (Or failure to properly hook into the extension.)

The pilot in question is a conscientious, by-the-book kind of guy who doesn't rush things or skip steps the way I sometimes see other pilots doing. He's somebody who I really didn't expect to ever have this particular kind of adventure. We're still waiting for a follow-up post from him, after he has a chance to sort through his gear, evaluate the bruise on his leg and talk about things with his wife (who is down there with him).
User avatar
By NMERider
#384465
I fully agree about wanting to avoid webbing rubbing against webbing. When I use the simple doubled over extension loop I try to seat it good with the biner so there won't be any friction while in flight. I have never observed any evidence of fraying or abrasion on it but it's good to frequently inspect components like this. I hope your fellow club member and his wife are able to enjoy the rest of their vacation in spite of the excitement.
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By AIRTHUG
#384466
jjcote wrote: The doubling of strength by doubling over the strap strikes me as irrelevant. If you're pulling enough load to break a hang strap, you're already in way serious trouble. And there's no point in making the extension stronger than the strap it's hooked into. But I agree that a backup from the hang strap to the 'biner is pointless. A backup to the keel would provide protection for something like the bolt holding the hang strap to the kingpost backing out. (Or failure to properly hook into the extension.)
To JJ,
Respectfully- you recognize the potential for wear of the hang loop, but then say doubling the strength is irrelevant? If a hang loop did get worn to say 50% of it's original strength... would you rather it be single-ply strong, or double-ply strong?

To Everyone,
I hope you all have actually looked at the "main sewn to the backup" hang loop system? They are two separate loops completely- one bolts to the kingpost-hang, while the other goes over the keel and is connected with a maillon. Below the spreader bar the two loops are sewn together for simplicity, aerodynamics, and safety- it's impossible to hook in to the "primary" but forget the "secondary". It's very simple, yet very clever if you think about it. Also, the backup is just barely longer than the main- on most other setups, if you end up hanging on the backup you'll be a good 3 (or more) inches lower... good luck flying and landing like that. Although it still beats FALLING OUT! :ahh:

Looping a backup through the same double-hang-loop IS NOT POINTLESS, because as I explained that double loop *is* both connected to the kingpost AND around the keel... so if you connect an extension to the double hang loop, it's not a bad idea to also connect a backup to the double hang loop too. In this case it would have prevented the pilot from exiting the aircraft unexpectedly!

Speaking of the pilot exiting unexpectedly- two questions came up (and maybe those that know the pilot could answer or ask him?)....
1. After returning to Earth under canopy, was the extension hang loop connected to the pilot's carabiner? If it WAS the method where you hook in on one side of the hang loop, put the extension loop through the hang loop, and hook in to it again... and the pilot only hooked in to one half... and it slipped through the tape finally... he would have had the single loop hooked through his biner a single time still, right? Seems it would be pretty easy to see if he didn't hook in to it twice?
2. What kind of harness, and how was the reserve attached (to the biner, or internally)? In his report he mentioned his descent under canopy was in the upright position and leaning slightly forward... but in most conventional harnesses the reserve runs along the harness main and connects at the biner... and so in a deployment he'd be suspended just as he would hanging in a hang glider- prone. Maybe if he got his legs out, sunk down into the leg loops, and arched his back he could have gotten upright... but it's surprisingly hard- even in the best get-upright harnesses- when you've got no glider to hold on to. That description just struck me as slightly odd...

Anyway, obviously super happy to hear the pilot is OK! And really appreciate his willingness to share his story, rather than keep it mum. Since it happened in Meheeco, if this pilot didn't tell about it, most of us wouldn't never heard about it.

I'm not sure there are really any new lessons here specifically- but the bigger picture lesson is ever-valuable... aviation is an unforgiving mistress, and we need to apply the utmost diligence to every detail. ESPECIALLY hooking in! This shows mistakes happen... which is why we check and triple check things BEFORE launching. It's understandable how he might have hooked in incorrectly, as he's just a guy like the rest of us. But how he got in the air like that (if that IS what happened)... is actually a SERIES of forgetting things, or a SERIES of failures... and that is something we can not allow of ourselves or our friends! Everyone's allowed to make mistake(s)... but we need to be so careful it's highly unlikely we link a bunch of compounding mistakes together... and that our friends are watching our back still... so THEY would need to ALSO make the same mistake(s)- like checking you are hooked in during the hang check. The chances of a diligent person failing to connect correctly, failing to double or triple check that connection, and their friend(s) also failing to spot it and/or forgetting to check up on their buddy before he launches... like make sure he does a hang check, and then the hang checker actually... well, checks...

So- lesson learned? Move slow and deliberate, doubt yourself and check everything repeatedly, and then have your friends check you too... chances of this kind of thing happening if all of that happens? Pretty unlikely IMHO...
User avatar
By Bouyo
#384467
Difficult to know what happened without talking to Jeff in person.

I'm an experienced climber as well as a pilot. A larks foot is not as strong as two loops, however it's still strong enough and has the advantage of being more fool proof.

I'd be surprised if the pilot only clipped one of the two loops. I can easily see someone clipping directly above the tape though. If it was strong tape then it would also easily bear static loading and much more.

Also, depending on the quantities of tape used you can easily obscure important visual clues about the routing of a strap.

This reminds me of a tragic incident a couple years ago which showed how easily things can be rigged wrong: http://www.climbing.com/news/the-quickd ... rsa-death/
User avatar
By jjcote
#384479
AIRTHUG wrote: Respectfully- you recognize the potential for wear of the hang loop, but then say doubling the strength is irrelevant? If a hang loop did get worn to say 50% of it's original strength... would you rather it be single-ply strong, or double-ply strong?
You don't fly with a worn strap. My concern about strap wearing isn't that it's going to fail in flight, it's that it's going to damage the gear so that you'll have to replace it too often.
AIRTHUG wrote: Looping a backup through the same double-hang-loop IS NOT POINTLESS, because as I explained that double loop *is* both connected to the kingpost AND around the keel... so if you connect an extension to the double hang loop, it's not a bad idea to also connect a backup to the double hang loop too. In this case it would have prevented the pilot from exiting the aircraft unexpectedly!
Well, not entirely pointless, but less than entirely helpful. I don't know what he was flying, so I don't know if there was a double hang loop (it might have been a Sport2, in which I'd expect it was, at least if it still had the original equipment). If there was no backup in the hang strap, then just backing up to the hang strap means that you still have a single point of failure. But it also overcomplicates things. If you use lark's head knots, you'll have a bulky mess that's hard to inspect. If you just loop the extenders through the main, now you need to put the biner through four loops! A separate backup to the keel is much simpler.
AIRTHUG wrote: 1. After returning to Earth under canopy, was the extension hang loop connected to the pilot's carabiner? If it WAS the method where you hook in on one side of the hang loop, put the extension loop through the hang loop, and hook in to it again... and the pilot only hooked in to one half... and it slipped through the tape finally... he would have had the single loop hooked through his biner a single time still, right? Seems it would be pretty easy to see if he didn't hook in to it twice?
Exactly. I've emailed him for clarification on that. What he wrote was " The extender appeared to be doubled over so that there were 2 loops to hook your carabiner through. [...] The extender was in the carabiner and the carabiner was locked". If that's what it sounds like then topology says it wasn't ever hooked through the two.
AIRTHUG wrote: 2. What kind of harness, and how was the reserve attached (to the biner, or internally)?
Not sure about that. I believe he got a new CG1000 last year, but I haven't seen it. I would expect that's what he would have brought, but before that he had a Tracer, and if there was some issue with the new harness, he might have brought the old one.
Bouyo wrote: I'd be surprised if the pilot only clipped one of the two loops. I can easily see someone clipping directly above the tape though.
We'll have to wait for clarification from him. His initial description makes me suspect the former, unlikely though that may seem. If he was clipped above the tape, would there be a way for the extender to end up connected to the biner?
User avatar
By jjcote
#384485
Thinking about this some more, I can see that there's even a right way to do the wrong thing. If you wanted to loop an extender through a biner and clip into both sides, and to secure it with tape so that the extender wouldn't fall out when the biner is removed, don't bunch the two loops together and put tape around the whole bundle. Instead, tape the two loops together on each side so that there isn't an "above the tape" place to hook the biner, and so that the two loops are bound together to make it very difficult to hook into just one. I can provide an illustration if that explanation is too hard to understand. Not foolproof, but more fool resistant. Don't allow yourself to fool yourself!

(I don't know how the extender in Mexico was set up.)
User avatar
By red
#384488
NMERider wrote:In any event there's nothing wrong with carrying a length of mountain climbing rope and knowing how to tie a double-fisherman's knot or a figure-8 follow-through, etc. and at least make your own custom backup if it helps gives peace of mind.
Campers,

I'll second that one!

For anybody who needs help with the Figure-Eight-On-A-Bight knot, it's on my web page.
For use as a hang loop, there is one load-bearing rope and one free end of the rope, at each end of the knot.
This loop of rope is then used as you would use any sewed loop of webbing for a hang strap, or as a back-up.
You should see my four picture links for the FIG-8 knot; if you see only three, you have a cached copy in your browser.
Hit the RELOAD (or REFRESH) button to see the latest version of my web page.
Scroll down about half page of text, to the four picture links in this article:

http://user.xmission.com/~red/#ha

:mrgreen:
Last edited by red on Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By NMERider
#384489
jjcote wrote:Thinking about this some more, I can see that there's even a right way to do the wrong thing. If you wanted to loop an extender through a biner and clip into both sides, and to secure it with tape so that the extender wouldn't fall out when the biner is removed, don't bunch the two loops together and put tape around the whole bundle. Instead, tape the two loops together on each side so that there isn't an "above the tape" place to hook the biner, and so that the two loops are bound together to make it very difficult to hook into just one. I can provide an illustration if that explanation is too hard to understand. Not foolproof, but more fool resistant. Don't allow yourself to fool yourself!

(I don't know how the extender in Mexico was set up.)
Don't do this! It's possible to hook the biner across the tape and not over the two loops. :ahh: :ahh: :ahh:
User avatar
By jjcote
#384490
NMERider wrote:
jjcote wrote:I can provide an illustration if that explanation is too hard to understand.)
Don't do this! It's possible to hook the biner across the tape and not over the two loops. :ahh: :ahh: :ahh:
Right, pictures. Might as well start at the beginning. Note that these pictures are of stuff from my bag of climbing gear, not my actual HG equipment. Click on the pictures for larger versions.

Lark's head:
Image
Looping the extender through the hang strap and clipping into both sides:
Image
The taping method I'm cautioning against:
Image
What I suspect happened in Mexico:
Image
Another horrible scenario:
Image
The taping method I'm recommending:
Image
User avatar
By dave hopkins
#384499
jjcote wrote:
NMERider wrote:
jjcote wrote:I can provide an illustration if that explanation is too hard to understand.)
Don't do this! It's possible to hook the biner across the tape and not over the two loops. :ahh: :ahh: :ahh:
Right, pictures. Might as well start at the beginning. Note that these pictures are of stuff from my bag of climbing gear, not my actual HG equipment. Click on the pictures for larger versions.

Lark's head:
Image
Looping the extender through the hang strap and clipping into both sides:
Image
The taping method I'm cautioning against:
Image
What I suspect happened in Mexico:
Image
Another horrible scenario:
Image
The taping method I'm recommending:
Image[/quote Thanks for all the pictures. The bottom one is definitely the way to go.
User avatar
By Tormod
#384512
Also: Attach the harness BEFORE you put it on. That way it's much easier to check that the harness is correctly hooked in.

(And there's other benefits as well, but let's not go into them now) :P
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#384522
sigh...

This story of a near-miss... well, actually, it wasn't a near miss... he *DID* literally fall out of his hang glider! He just managed to pull himself back from the dead with a very fast reserve deployment. It's miraculous he wasn't injured from the opening shock BTW...

But what I wanted to say...

This is a story of a near miss... and it's devolved into a "this is the right way" internet discussion. This is the right way to connect a loop, this is the right way to have a backup loop, this is the right way to connect the harness to the glider before putting it on...

What happened to- find a way that works for YOU, stick with it so you build routine. In addition, build in several safe-guards and triple checks to ensure a failure to connect, or connect correctly, or put the harness on incorrectly, or assemble the glider incorrectly or incompletely, or.... you get the idea.

For most of these things, there is not one true "right way". The right way is the way in which the objective is completed safely and reliably... and that could be different for different people.

Can we perhaps agree to leave the opinion of which way is "right" out of this? If people feel they're contributing to safety by identifying "wrong" (overly risky) methods, fine... but remember this is hang gliding, it's a dangerous thing that can be done safely. The same is true for many of these alternate, or even so called "wrong" methods...

Let's focus on HOW DID THIS PILOT FALL OUT OF HIS GLIDER... and how can each of us ensure this doesn't happen to us? (hint, we might all accomplish this in different ways... and that's cool!) Sharing your way as a suggestion or idea for others is also great. Saying it's THE way... not so constructive... IMHO
User avatar
By brian scharp
#384527
What happened to- find a way that works for YOU, stick with it so you build routine. In addition, build in several safe-guards and triple checks to ensure a failure to connect...
That's interesting.
User avatar
By Mavi Gogun
#384528
Ryan wrote:sigh...<insert didactic noise here>
A practice failed; the natural, normal reaction is to seek AND *test* better practices- and that very much includes contesting "best". So, no, we really can't just suppose that there are any number of valid methods. We are in a constant educational battle with primacy and comfort- either of which are unduly weighted if left unchecked.

This was a timely exchange for me, flying just a couple days ago with a doubled-over extension.
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#384531
Mavi Gogun wrote: This was a timely exchange for me, flying just a couple days ago with a doubled-over extension.
Looks like you did it wrong:
jjcote wrote:The right way to use an extender is to put it through the hang strap, then put one loop through the other and pull it tight
Or did you do it right?
(referring to using a doubled-over hang loop through the other hang loop(s))
NMERider wrote: 1 - This is how the president of the HGMA had me hooking in at last year's Demo Days and I think Mike and Steve know what they're doing.

2 - By doubling the extension loop over through the hang strap you double the strength. There's no reason to use a backup extension loop any more than there's a need to use a second carabiner.
Or did you do it wrong, since you didn't tape it up?
dave hopkins wrote:Thanks for all the pictures. The bottom one is definitely the way to go.
Is everyone here wrong? If we speak in absolutes- that is, saying there is a "right way"... or even "best" way... then what I'm suggesting is yea, everyone is wrong (sometimes).

There are trade offs to everything! I'm saying let's all agree to stay away from saying what is "right" or even "best", when obviously there are multiple acceptable variations.

It's wrong to fail at hooking in, and it's twice as wrong to fail at missing a failure to hook in until airborne. How to reduce the opportunity for the first failure is an excellent discussion- as there are many variations. How to reduce the chance of a DOUBLE failure like this one... that's another, separate, excellent discussion.

But as soon as someone said "always connect the harness to the glider first and you'll never launch unhooked"... I realized we were heading the wrong direction for progress. There's always a way... and at least for some people... feeling "safer" because hey, if I've got my harness on I *must* be hooked in... maybe that actually makes them LESS safe? Different people are different is all I'm sayin'. Different ways to accomplish the big picture should not be discouraged with one-size-fits-all thinking of "the right way" over all others...
User avatar
By Bouyo
#384537
All I can say is that Dave Hopkin's last pictured method is probably the best way to tape an extender (if you ever felt the need to).

As Ryan said, everyone's going to have their own reasons for hooking in like they do.

In a perverse way, I think I'd actually prefer having two loops and NO tape - that way I have to make double sure that I'm hooking both loops. Having tape there gives an illusion of a single loop when there's really still two.