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By NMERider
#384540
I think it's just plain old faulty, human nature to state things in terms or black/white, right/wrong, absolutes, ultimates, etc. It takes training or education to overcome habits like these and to decode what we read and hear and to filter out opinion stated as fact or certainty. I believe the vast majority of our readers do filter out the chaff from the wheat and hopefully they see the seriousness of storing an extension loop on a glider by taping it in place.

For me, the takeaway from this discussion is to think long and hard about how we store our own or others store their extension loops. When there is no single way of doing things and pilots borrow one another's gliders or harness and then run into a method that differs from their own. But the pilot/owner isn't there to explain that 'thing' they forgot to mention. And so accidents like this one will recur for more or less the same likely reason that this one happened in the first place.

For me the single-most critical component of pre-flight is verification. If a critical attachment device like a hang loop extension is obscured by tape or be a series of larks heads or anything that prevents direct visual verification of correct routing and attachment then there is the probability of a preventable failure of the device.

Ryan seems to be doing his typically good job of driving home the importance of operator error(s). This cannot be overlooked. But what happens when the operator is thwarted from verifying a critical connection because his ability to do so is thwarted by something that's in the way? In this case it was tape that sounds like it prevented observing the routing of the extension loop(s).

At what point does a operator (pilot) start dismantling his own or another person's flying gear in order verify the integrity of the flying equipment? How many layers of tape to we remove? How many zippers or Velcro flaps do we open? Do we do a side wire stomp test on someone else's glider to verify the cables will survive long enough in flight to reach reserve deployment altitude?

Imagine what would have happens to this East Coast pilot had he separated too low for his reserve to work but too high to survive the impact? Just like Rick Master's complaint about PGs, we too have a Dead-Zone. There is a proximity to terrain where our reserve may not help us and we our left to the quality of our pre-flights and flying decisions.

Not a matter to be taken lightly.
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By Mavi Gogun
#384541
Ryan wrote:Looks like you did it wrong *snip* Or did you do it right? *snip* Or did you do it wrong, since you didn't tape it up? *snip* Is everyone here wrong?
Like it or not, this is the vetting process. Contest, test, and challenge.

I wasn't satisfied with the safety ramifications of the solution I resolved. As a consequence, after connecting the extensions, I left the harness hooked in.

Best practices here in order of preference?

*employ a properly dimensioned hang strap
*attach a temporary extension with a lark's head when possible; make arrangements for a properly dimensioned hang strap
*sheath (complication?) a temporary doubled-over strap to prevent exclusion or hook in the harness to the extension prior to climbing in the harness; make arrangements for a properly dimensioned hang strap

Why these steps, this order? Because the most common part to fail is the pilot. The first couple times I use an extension, it will have all my attention- if I allow it to be other than temporary, I introduce a gratuitous opportunity to fail. Something will distract or beg rushing at just the wrong moment- and I become another statistic. Here we are confronted by a need to adapt available resources or not fly- always a choice.

Like any other "accident", the further we get from the first bad choice, the greater the propagation of implications.
Ryan wrote:There are trade offs to everything! I'm saying let's all agree to stay away from saying what is "right" or even "best", when obviously there are multiple acceptable variations.
Some trade offs are clearly inferior- some unclearly inferior! -and some variations ain't acceptable, should not be promoted, and must be challenged.... as has been the case here.

It just may be that the vegetables we don't care for ARE exactly what we should be eating...so challenge and test the claim; unforeseen discovery may result. In the case of voicing the "connect harness first" argument, it provides opportunity to challenge "ya, but with screwed-up strap arrangement B you might just as easily misconnect the carabiner". If all of our notions are accorded equal value, they are more likely to go untested.

I get the complacency-one-size-fits-all non-solution cautioned against- but reckon those are no more a liability than notions of always staying vigilant. Routine and best practices are our check on vigilance/focus failures.
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By brian scharp
#384547
NMERider wrote:Do we do a side wire stomp test on someone else's glider to verify the cables will survive long enough in flight to reach reserve deployment altitude?
Only if you're not into Russian roulette. You'll probably be OK if you don't.
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By AIRTHUG
#384549
I think you get what I was getting at Chris... but not sure...

How about a case in point as example:

Talking about adjusting hang height at the harness/glider connection...

JoeSHMOE posts
The right way is to girth hitch the extension loop and hook in to that
Then JohnSHMOE says
No, the right way is to girth hitch TWO loops, so that way you have a main and a backup
But JeffSHMOE then says
I was told by the king of kings that the right way is to use a single loop, route it through the glider's main and backup, and then hook the harness in to BOTH ends of this extension loop
And of course JimSHMOE has to chime in
The right way is to use a single loop, put it through both hang loops, and then tape both ends together so it's near-impossible not to hook in to both ends
And not to be outdone, JamesSHMOE says
The right way to do that is to leave the extension loop connected to the carabiner, and when you go to hook in to the glider you pass the extension loop through the glider's hang loops, and then hook in only once- to the single end you just passed through. The other end is always connected. This is the only right way to do this, as it's the most foolproof.
But JakeSHMOE has to say
These are all wrong, because you are hooking in after putting the harness on. The right way is to rig the extension and then connect the harness- during your setup process. Now you can double check it during your pre-flight, and check it a third time in your hang loop.
As fun as that was... you might be wondering... what's the big deal... so what everyone says their own way is right, implying or outright saying all others are wrong?

Well... JustinSHMOE new pilot comes here and reads through all of this... and by the end his head is spinning. Wait, which way should I do it he says? He asks his instructor, but no matte which answer the instructor gives... even with supporting rational... the internet says he's wrong LOL

Big deal? Nah. Just annoying.

But then JustinSHMOE new pilot gets hurt, and it's possibly related to how he connected the hang loop extension. Mr Bloodthirsty lawyer does a google search and finds so-and-so experienced pilot who says that way they connected the hang loop is dead wrong, and "this is the only right way"... stated as fact as if it's the accepted official standard how we all agree to do it the same...

Wouldn't it be a lot easier, and a lot clearer, if everyone just said "I like doing it this way because X, Y, and Z".... and "I would not use that method myself, because X, Y, Z"...

That sure would make the forum a better learning place... which I assume is the largest reason people choose to share information here and respond to these posts rather than just lurking... or having real friends to talk to :lol:
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By dayhead
#384550
"That sure would make the forum a better learning place... which I assume is the largest reason people choose to share information here and respond to these posts rather than just lurking... or having real friends to talk to"

:lol:

Ryan, I don't care what the Chaplain is saying, I think you're all right.
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By jjcote
#384556
Not following a reliable routine can be called out as a problem here, having come about because the pilot was flying a rented glider. In his note, he takes the blame for the problem due to not having pulled off the tape to see exactly what he was clipping into. He also thinks it's really unlikely that he missed a loop, because he specifically remembers clipping into two, but it sounds to me like the evidence indicates otherwise.

That said, I'll take the blame for having used the word "wrong". Lots of ways to do things, lots of examples of them all working. Some are more prone to failure than others. Some people (even some top pilots) will run from the back of the ramp even though most will advise that it's a really bad idea. Remmoore will advise us to get better helmets, and we have examples of what happens when you crash with the popular ones. Red will tell us to never hang from tubular webbing, and there are thousands of successful flights using tubular webbing. Nothing wrong with telling people not to do it, because it has a known failure mode. Nothing wrong with discussing how this pilot came to fall out of his glider, and to propose ways to hook things up that lessen the chances of that happening.

I know the pilot very well, and I expect he'll write up a much more complete report than we've seen, and submit it to the USHPA accident repository (which doesn't necessarily mean we'll ever see it). Mavi's order of preference for how to hook things up seems reasonable to me. Flying with gear that isn't your own, that you don't know all the details of, is a pig in a poke, and you better check things out more thoroughly than you do with your own stuff, or you might get a really unpleasant surprise.

I fully agree with Ryan, by the way, that this was not a near miss. This was definitely an incident/accident (any deployment is), and a far worse one than I hope the vast majority of pilots ever experience. Near fatality, but not a near miss.
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By Bouyo
#384563
AIRTHUG wrote:which I assume is the largest reason people choose to share information here and respond to these posts
I largest reason is because we're a bunch of sad individuals with nothing better to do that b---- about each other, like every other internet forum. I do like it though.
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By Tormod
#384582
But as soon as someone said "always connect the harness to the glider first and you'll never launch unhooked"...
I (or anybody else) didn't say that! I said it's easier to check the connection if you attach the harness first. It's just my opinion and a suggestion. If I said that it's the only way and you'd be an idiot not to do it my way, I'd understand the negative reaction.

In aviation general there is no choice in how you perform a pre-flight check, every type of aircraft has it's differences which must be dealt with accordingly.

Only in hanggliding we're allowed to invent our own check list. Only in hanggliding we're allowed to fly with home made equipment. Only in hanggliding the same aircraft is allowed to fly with multiple (uncertified) configurations. My opinion is that there indeed IS one safest procedure, it only needs to be developed, agreed upon and taught.
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By jjcote
#384583
I got confirmation from the pilot that he was flying with his CG1000 harness. It sounds like he's also in agreement that he incorrectly had the biner hooked into only one loop.
By blindrodie
#384587
Sure would like to know what kind of chute he used, where it was mounted, approx. altitude of throw, how soon he got his chute out after he realized he was free falling, etc...

8)
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By Clockboy
#384607
Here’s my take on it: I don’t know the specifics of this incident, but in general, if you’re ever in that situation, like forgetting to hook in or a hang loop connection boo boo, and you are too high to just let go and take the fall, fly away from the hill, get some altitude and deploy while you are still with the glider. If you can get your feet in the basetube, you’re a stud, but you probably won’t be able to. If you’re hanging from the basetube by your hands, you’ll be flying fast but you should be able to fly straight. You’ll lose what little bit of control you have when you let go with one hand to deploy, so try to move one hand to the middle of the basetube first. The chute will deploy nicely in that situation and you’ll have very little altitude loss. In other words, don’t go sky diving, deploy while you’re still sort of hang gliding. Kind of obvious stuff I guess, but it’s good to think about things before they never happen.
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By Clockboy
#384608
For me personally, I would be fine with either the Larkshead (pic #1) or the Looping Extender (pic #2). I would use the one that best gets me the correct distance from the basetube. I’m pretty sure pic #2, looping the extender through the hang strap and clipping into both sides (pic 2), is the way Wills Wing recommends, but yes, you do have to be careful to make sure you get both sides in your biner (kind of important lol). I would view this as a temporary thing, like borrowing or a harness. In that situation, I’m willing to fly without a backup, even with the Larkshead setup, but that’s a personal choice I guess. For my own glider, I would make it a priority to get the right hang loop and backup on there. I have two harnesses (one pod, one cocoon) and I did have the cocoon modified to be DHV length like the pod, so I wouldn’t have to mess around with extenders. Another thing about backups – make sure it stays slack at all bar positions. It might look right on the ground, but if it’s too short, it can interfere with control.
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By Mavi Gogun
#384609
Clockboy wrote:The chute will deploy nicely in that situation and you’ll have very little altitude loss.
As I understand it, as the glider accelerates into an aggressive dive, most wings will attempt to nose up, g-forces rapidly building. I reckon "hang on with one hand" is advice very, very few non-cinematic pilots could manage, and "very little altitude loss" wishful... at best.
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By dave hopkins
#384610
This is all good discussion. It is making me think much deeper about using a hang strap extender. I have used them often or helped setup students hang height so I have lots of experience adding an extender. I always have a bag of straps in my van and a piece of climbing rope to tie if needed. I hung on one for yrs but it seems to make pilot squeamish these days.
I have used both methods. Making a lark head knot or bending a strap over creating two loops to hook into. Plus always having a backup. I have always done this with the intent of it being a temporary situation. Which one I used depends on the length of the material I have to work with.
As mentioned there is no certified way to do this. The important thing is that we have checked carefully that the connection is bullet proof. We must feel rock solid about being hooked in or we shouldn't launch.
My thoughts on the two different setups are that the Larkhead knot is good for temporary adjustments. It is a choker knot and will tend to weaken the strap it is over so not a good long term setup.
The loop doubled over is a lot of straps added and can be confusing to look at. The taping method in the last of the pictures removes the confusion and it does not choke the strap above it ,Much.
So in the future I will use or help others use that method . Maybe even as a permanent setup. I will still use a backup even if it is a double sewn strap.
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By jjcote
#384611
The parachute was a HE Quantum, 11 years old. The pilot repacks it himself on a regular basis.

It was apparently a pretty quick sequence from "why am I hanging low? I'd better head to the LZ", then 10-15 seconds to suddenly hanging by his armpits, swinging back and forth. While trying to get to the chute handle he slipped to hanging on by his hands, and when he let go with one hand to grab the chute, he lost his grip with the other hand. He was falling face-up, and threw the chute upwards.

I don't know what kind of glider it was, so I don't know what kind of control bar it was. Seems like it would be considerably harder to hold onto a streamlined bar than a round one.
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By NMERider
#384614
jjcote wrote:The parachute was a HE Quantum, 11 years old. The pilot repacks it himself on a regular basis.

It was apparently a pretty quick sequence from "why am I hanging low? I'd better head to the LZ", then 10-15 seconds to suddenly hanging by his armpits, swinging back and forth. While trying to get to the chute handle he slipped to hanging on by his hands, and when he let go with one hand to grab the chute, he lost his grip with the other hand. He was falling face-up, and threw the chute upwards.

I don't know what kind of glider it was, so I don't know what kind of control bar it was. Seems like it would be considerably harder to hold onto a streamlined bar than a round one.
:shock: :shock: :shock: I don't smoke but badly needed a cigarette after reading this. :lol: Kudos to the pilot for keeping up with routine maintenance. :thumbsup:
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By flysurfski
#384622
just my opinion but what I take from this is the importance of a one strap back up to the keel even with extenders.... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
(even if the backup is way too long)

just my opinion...
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By dave hopkins
#384709
A question THAT COMES TO MIND is why did the pilot miss a loop after having hooked in to two loops for previous flights.
A possibility is that he was suffering from hypoxia. Valle launch is quite high and most flat lander are going to suffer some dull attention at that altitude . I know I would.