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By DAVE 858
#383812
I am going to say something & it is likely not going to go over well, but I have been ruminating over this in my mind for a while & I just have to say something.

If you do not have health insurance & have no means available to pay for your expenses in the event that you are injured, you are a problem...

I have been a member of several extreme sports communities & have seen this scenario play out time & time again. Accident occurs & the member faces huge expenses in the form of hospital bills & other expenses & then someone on their behalf solicits monetary donations on social media.

The instances in which this occurs & the correlation of the fact that most times the person involved did not have any form of health insurance or preparations are all too frequent. On one hand I am proud to be a part of such a caring community, but on the other hand I am a little bit angry at the fact that some people can be so irresponsible.

Everyone should have health insurance of some kind, especially if you are participating in high risk activities. You should also have a power of attorney as well as a significant savings put aside, call it an "Oh s---" fund... These are simple steps you can take & a far better contingency plan than taking to social media & asking for hand outs.

There will more than likely be someone who is going to reply & call me callous & cold hearted & probably make some reference to Karma & that they are praying to see me have my day/days in the hospital, so they can rant on Social Media at what a cold ass bastard I am & that I got what I deserved etc... I really don't care, because I have made my preparations. I think that gives me better Karma points than just rolling the dice & hoping nothing happens.
User avatar
By NMERider
#383813
It's a moral dilemma. By the same token we can accuse dealers and instructors of feeding the same problem by giving lessons and selling equipment to prospective pilots who have inadequate health insurance or other financial means to not become a burden to others in the event they crash and burn. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying they better donate or else. This is what freedom of choice is really about. To engage in a high risk activity with or without health and life insurance? To donate to an injured or dead pilot's health or funeral fund? Law enforcement and fire fighters go though this very same issue all the time. So do military personnel. Freedom of choice means being faced with almost constant moral dilemmas. That's what life is all about. It's about having to choose or decide between the devil you know and the devil you don't. It takes character to face these decisions.

The same holds true for each and every flying decision even if you do have plenty of insurance and all the financial means necessary. My favorite complaint is all the resources that were wasted looking for Steve Fossett. He was worth tens of millions of dollars but was too cheap to fly with a proper locator beacon in a borrowed plane. It was his decision and it adversely affected the resources that all came up empty looking for him.

This reminds me that I need to renew my SPOT locator tracking service. Or else I may get an Asshole Award if I don't. :oops: :lol: :goodidea: :owned:

EDIT - Just found out it auto-renewed. :thumbsup:
User avatar
By Mavi Gogun
#383815
Dave wrote:The instances in which this occurs & the correlation of the fact that most times the person involved did not have any form of health insurance or preparations are all too frequent. On one hand I am proud to be a part of such a caring community, but on the other hand I am a little bit angry at the fact that some people can be so irresponsible.

Everyone should have health insurance of some kind, especially if you are participating in high risk activities.
Would that these "should"s were adhered to, hang gliding would never have developed- Hell, settlers would never have traveled West, nor would the rail road have crossed the continent.

It's so easy to view the world from the perspective of privileged security. "Oh, you don't have insurance? Please relegate yourself to this padded cell."

I doubt you can find a pilot who wouldn't appreciate health care, liability, or death insurance; I reckon the vast majority of folks who lack these do not go without by choice. What point then the finger wagging?
By once&future
#383817
Mavi Gogun wrote: I doubt you can find a pilot who wouldn't appreciate health care, liability, or death insurance; I reckon the vast majority of folks who lack these do not go without by choice.
That's an interesting supposition. While Obamacare's far from perfect I thought most folks in the US could now get at least catastrophic care coverage if they want it (and at cheap gov't subsidized rates if they don't have the money to pay full freight).

If there are pilots on this forum for whom that's not true, please feel free to correct me.
User avatar
By RobertKesselring
#383820
Insurance is nothing more then a formal, quantified, and legalized form of good karma. If you contribute to helping those who have problems (by paying your premium) then you can expect help in the event that you have a problem (by filing a claim)

There are less official forms of good karma. If you have a reputation for helping those in need, it is more likely that you will receive help when you are in need, just because you have a reputation as a nice person.

If you choose a formal or an informal version of good karma is entirely up to you and your personal preference. If you have no good karma, then you'll deserve what you get.
User avatar
By NMERider
#383822
once&future wrote:
Mavi Gogun wrote: I doubt you can find a pilot who wouldn't appreciate health care, liability, or death insurance; I reckon the vast majority of folks who lack these do not go without by choice.
That's an interesting supposition. While Obamacare's far from perfect I thought most folks in the US could now get at least catastrophic care coverage if they want it (and at cheap gov't subsidized rates if they don't have the money to pay full freight).

If there are pilots on this forum for whom that's not true, please feel free to correct me.
They can but if they don't file tax returns then they don't have to pay the penalty for not having any insurance. The government statistics about unemployment are baloney. The real unemployment rate in the US seems to be many times higher than what's stated. The real measure is in the Statistics of Income data which is based entirely on reported income from federal tax returns. I haven't looked at it in a long time but I'm confident that a significant number of hang glider pilots don't even file returns. Therefore they avoid the no-insurance penalty tax in the process. We have a lot of pilot living off the grid.

OTOH, I have a pilot acquaintance who got hurt exactly the same way I did. It was a whiplash injury with fractured vertebrae and cervical radiculopathy. At the time he had little or no health insurance and had to suffer while working self-employed with responsibilities.When Obamacare kicked in he was able to afford real health insurance and it helped him big time. I know other pilots who had to go to county hospitals E/Rs for their care and wait all day and night to be attended. Now many of these pilots have healthcare and some of them need it.

But as I said there are a lot of pilots who live off the grid until they get hurt. Then they sign up for GoFundMe and ask for help. It's a tough situation for a lot of our members. This leads to the moral dilemma for everyone else when it comes time to lend a helping hand. There is no right or wrong and black or white answer. There's not reason to feel guilty for saying yes or no and there's no reason to feel angry about it. I can see feeling frustrated and aggravated. It's an annoying situation. We don't live in a perfect society by any stretch of the imagination.
User avatar
By tom emery
#383824
So....if you had the choice between buying a new parachute or spending the money on insurance.....?
User avatar
By jjcote
#383825
Well, what if you had a glider and harness, and enough money to pay for enough gas to get to launch, but not enough for a parachute or insurance. Would you fly then? Or if the only glider you could afford clearly had a shrunken sail that's badly UV damaged and prone to tearing, with downtubes that aren't really straight.

If you can't afford the stuff you need, maybe you shouldn't be flying.
User avatar
By designbydave
#383830
Why are some people so hostile towards others in need.

"handouts"

Sometimes people need a little help.
User avatar
By Mr Pou
#383836
designbydave wrote:Why are some people so hostile towards others in need.

"handouts"

Sometimes people need a little help.
I guess some people have never had health issues. I had an issue two years ago, have good insurance, but yet when all was said and done my out of pocket could have bought a pair of brand new T2C's. Luckily I had a rainy day fund.

But even with good insurance and some savings, an extended illness can send things south quickly.

"There but for the grace of God go I"
User avatar
By Mavi Gogun
#383837
jjcote wrote:Well, what if you had a glider and harness, and enough money to pay for enough gas to get to launch, but not enough for a parachute or insurance. Would you fly then? Or if the only glider you could afford clearly had a shrunken sail that's badly UV damaged and prone to tearing, with downtubes that aren't really straight...
...and you're trapped in the walled prison city of New Detroit with the only vial of antidote to the zombie plague, at the top of the Marriott hotel, with the minions of the Warlord of Motor City guning their way up, flight after to flight, through the last hold outs of Free Men, to retrieve it- all the while knowing that unless you arrive at paddle-boat The General Lee by sun down the River King will sell your daughter in to slavery to cover your gambling debts -and it's l & v with a killer laps rate and a clear line of convergence?

Why, I'd fly the f--- out of that glider.
User avatar
By Nigel Hewitt
#383840
It's an interesting question. For my recent trip from the UK to Florida the full health insurance with hang gliding named on the policy was a serious piece of the trip costs. The consequences of not having insurance isn't something we think about here much but it must be a worry especially to those with families.

What happens if you don't have insurance? The ambulance turns up, asks if you can afford to be treated and if not leaves you on the hill?
By old newbie
#383841
I don't think it is hostile to want pilots to be responsible. I have had friends an aquantences hurt and have contributed to help some that had health care and some without. That said when I hear of pilots with young family's pushing it and crashing with no insurance I do get annoyed. This sport is self indulgent, putting yourself at risk is one thing leaving your family at risk another.

Steve Forslund
User avatar
By DAVE 858
#383844
Nigel Hewitt wrote:It's an interesting question. For my recent trip from the UK to Florida the full health insurance with hang gliding named on the policy was a serious piece of the trip costs. The consequences of not having insurance isn't something we think about here much but it must be a worry especially to those with families.

What happens if you don't have insurance? The ambulance turns up, asks if you can afford to be treated and if not leaves you on the hill?
If you do not have insurance in the USA, you are held financially responsible for the cost of your care, which is astronomical expense. Health Care providers in the US have a duty to act, which means they cannot turn anyone away. They can however make every effort to recoup the cost of care from the responsible party. This often times means bankruptcy, wage garnishment & loss of financial assets.
By old newbie
#383846
More often if the person is of little to no assets or income it means settling for a ridiculously low amount(can't squeeze blood from a turnip) and the hospital rates and our insurance costs go up.

Steve Forslund
DAVE 858 wrote:
Nigel Hewitt wrote:It's an interesting question. For my recent trip from the UK to Florida the full health insurance with hang gliding named on the policy was a serious piece of the trip costs. The consequences of not having insurance isn't something we think about here much but it must be a worry especially to those with families.

What happens if you don't have insurance? The ambulance turns up, asks if you can afford to be treated and if not leaves you on the hill?
If you do not have insurance in the USA, you are held financially responsible for the cost of your care, which is astronomical expense. Health Care providers in the US have a duty to act, which means they cannot turn anyone away. They can however make every effort to recoup the cost of care from the responsible party. This often times means bankruptcy, wage garnishment & loss of financial assets.
User avatar
By HGXC
#383847
jjcote wrote:Well, what if you had a glider and harness, and enough money to pay for enough gas to get to launch, but not enough for a parachute or insurance. Would you fly then? Or if the only glider you could afford clearly had a shrunken sail that's badly UV damaged and prone to tearing, with downtubes that aren't really straight.

If you can't afford the stuff you need, maybe you shouldn't be flying.

Agree

Dennis
By gluesniffer
#383850
I think students should definitely be required to carry health insurance. Especially with the instructor insurance issues we are having now.


I also think ushpa and everyone on the org. should buy me a new t2c

:shock:
User avatar
By AIRTHUG
#383851
Maybe everyone here should go flying.

Less judging of other's choices against your own moral yardstick. More living by the standards you are free to set for yourself, and being satisfied that you do so. Let others enjoy that same freedom :thumbsup:

We are all crazy kite jumping peoples- this divisive negativity does not help anyone (including you, in the big picture)
By JackieB
#383852
Nigel Hewitt wrote:What happens if you don't have insurance? The ambulance turns up, asks if you can afford to be treated and if not leaves you on the hill?
No, the injured pilot would still be transported to the hospital (by helicopter if necessary) and would receive treatment. The hospital is arguably eager to discharge that patient as soon as possible, so the care is not as complete as it is for a patient with insurance, but hospitals generally (always?) deny that the ability to pay is a factor.

Then, the patient receives the full billed amount, not the deeply discounted prices negotiated with insurance companies. For example, a bill that has a face amount of $125,000 may be paid by insurance at a negotiated rate of $35,000.

Almost no patients can pay large hospital bills, so hospitals turn the debt over to collectors who make people miserably while trying to obtain payment. The likely recourse for the patient is to file bankruptcy and have the debt discharged, but their credit is ruined for many years.

It's a mess. Everyone in the USA has health coverage because we can't be flatly denied treatment by a hospital, at least not legally, but we don't all have insurance.
User avatar
By Mavi Gogun
#383853
JackieB wrote:Then, the patient receives the full billed amount, not the deeply discounted prices negotiated with insurance companies. For example, a bill that has a face amount of $125,000 may be paid by insurance at a negotiated rate of $35,000.

Almost no patients can pay large hospital bills, so hospitals turn the debt over to collectors who make people miserably while trying to obtain payment. The likely recourse for the patient is to file bankruptcy and have the debt discharged, but their credit is ruined for many years.
Close to my story: rather than repaired, I was stabilized- sewed closed rather than repaired -and shown the door. A huge bill followed from the hospital, and an individual bill from the physician. I payed the doctor's bill promptly. The hospital, on the other hand, wouldn't supply an itemized bill. I visited their billing office, located in a remote basement- well, more accurate would be to say that I visited the foyer, as they would not admit me into the office proper. After assuring a voice on an intercom that I wasn't going to go away, an account manager appeared through a secure automated sliding door to speak with me in the foyer about my bill; she promised to produce an itemized bill. It never came. A week later, the Feds indited the hospital for systematically defrauding patients. Rather than send me an itemized bill, they re-sold the fraudulent debt to a collection agent.

JackieB wrote:Everyone in the USA has health coverage because we can't be flatly denied treatment by a hospital, at least not legally, but we don't all have insurance.
Tell that to anyone one dying of cancer, or suffering from condition "X"- they are far from "covered". Ya, if you come in bleeding, attempts will be made to stop it- beyond that, more or less nothing.