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By paicolman
#379718
Adpal,

I'm half swiss, half colombian, I don't argue that there have been good things about the US getting involved in many countries, but the argument that the US selflessly goes sicrificing itself for others is just a myth. Yes switzerland did some bad things back then (also many good things), but noone would just accept the myth of the "neutral clean little country" here, we try to keep being objective and a bit critical on our country.
User avatar
By Enos
#379729
Aldpal wrote:Enos, if you are going to throw another log on the fire, than maybe I should grab some marshmallows (unless you have shrimp). One of the problems with debating a topic like gun control is getting by each others pre-conceived stereo types such as you referring to "Rabid 2nd amendment wielding gun owners". I know a lot of gun owners and I don't know any one that fits that description. I know there are some "pro gun nuts" out there, but the rabid ones you describe are a small minority but are promoted by then anti-gun movement (and the media) as the norm. It's kind of like when there has been a Tea Party rally with several thousand people attending. The media will search for the one knucklehead wearing a confederate flag shirt and focus only on him to support some false narrative. (going off on a tangent here but I still don't understand what is racist about a movement that is primarily focused on reducing or containing taxes and trying to have a fiscally responsible government). The other problem with debating a topic is when we can not agree on the basic facts at hand. In the US it has been shown that increasing legal gun ownership and access to CCW (right to carry) has greatly reduced gun violence and other crimes as well as homicide numbers. Most gun owners are also in favor of reasonable laws or restrictions. Problem is that after a shooting like The Sandy Hook case, politicians immediately proposed at least 10 new gun regulations in that state. Funny thing is that not one of these new laws would have prevented the Sandy Hook shooting. I know the NRA some times takes extreme positions, but they are not negotiating with an opposing side that wants to meet at a reasonable middle ground. There is an anti-gun movement that wants the complete removal of all private gun ownership and any middle ground agreements are or would only be a first step toward that goal.

Even if you could remove all guns from the US overnight, you would not change the amount or percentage of violent criminals that are here and people like my 98 pound adult daughter would be relatively defenseless.

I also prefer to live in a country where the citizenry is armed, and where the Government should be accountable to and perhaps fear it's citizens rather than the other way around. That may sound silly living in a modern democracy, but who knows how fragile democracy may become. Just saying. OK past my bedtime :sleep:
It would be a prawn, not a shrimp but it's not your fault, I blame that bloody Paul Hogan ad from way back :p

It seems there are the intractable parties on both sides as per usual and they do tend to be the noisy ones.

To give some context of the kinds of thing I'm talking about here's an example of a common sense law that directly impacts me. I do some hobby blacksmithing and make knives. I am not allowed to make or sell a blade that is double edge (unless it is over a certain size and theoretically unconcealable). This annoys me and limits what I can make but I can see why because a double edged blade really only has one purpose and that's as a weapon for killing.

Similarly is so unreasonable to restrict access to the heavy firearms that are designed for the same purpose? You can still have your personal weapon just nothing beyond what's common sense. For example, no full auto weapons

There's another question though outside of the laws, why is it so different in the US than everywhere else? There are places with similar gun ownership stats that do not have these problems. It's not a simple matter of just getting rid of guns, but in my opinion that's a key step to reduce risk. I'm for prevention over cure
User avatar
By HGXC
#379730
"why is it so different in the US than everywhere else? There are places with similar gun ownership stats that do not have these problems. It's not a simple matter of just getting rid of guns, but in my opinion that's a key step to reduce risk. I'm for prevention over cure"

Because we are the USA and we celebrate the difference. I like Australians and i like the Swiss and Italians for who they are. We are different and I would never want to change that.

300 years and we went from a few pilgrims to the worlds super power, That didn't happen because we were like everyone else or made decisions like everyone else.

Now we seem to have become less self reliant and that has opened the door for big government and mommyism. If (like the Swiss) we all trained in weapons and we learned self defense I think that would go a long way to instilling the confidence to challenge the bad people and nut jobs that want to come to our country to do harm to innocent civilians. I want all my rights...I don't own a gun but I don't want anyone to tell me I can't. I don't want anyone to tell me I can't own a glider, Or that I can't eat meat or tax me for using certain products over other products.

That attitude is what propelled our development and we should never give that up. The world has many fine countries and each country has its own traditions and lifestyles when you saw those three American soldiers take charge on that French train, I like to think that is what the world expects from Americans that spirit is want we are about.

I am for prevention and wish to end disputes with discussion rather the violence. We are different but far from perfect and have made our share of mistakes. but my constitutional rights aren't on the table, they are precious.

Dennis
User avatar
By Enos
#379731
HGXC wrote:"why is it so different in the US than everywhere else? There are places with similar gun ownership stats that do not have these problems. It's not a simple matter of just getting rid of guns, but in my opinion that's a key step to reduce risk. I'm for prevention over cure"

Because we are the USA and we celebrate the difference. I like Australians and i like the Swiss and Italians for who they are. We are different and I would never want to change that.

300 years and we went from a few pilgrims to the worlds super power, That didn't happen because we were like everyone else or made decisions like everyone else.

Now we seem to have become less self reliant and that has opened the door for big government and mommyism. If (like the Swiss) we all trained in weapons and we learned self defense I think that would go a long way to instilling the confidence to challenge the bad people and nut jobs that want to come to our country to do harm to innocent civilians. I want all my rights...I don't own a gun but I don't want anyone to tell me I can't. I don't want anyone to tell me I can't own a glider, Or that I can't eat meat or tax me for using certain products over other products.

That attitude is what propelled our development and we should never give that up. The world has many fine countries and each country has its own traditions and lifestyles when you saw those three American soldiers take charge on that French train, I like to think that is what the world expects from Americans that spirit is want we are about.

I am for prevention and wish to end disputes with discussion rather the violence. We are different but far from perfect and have made our share of mistakes. but my constitutional rights aren't on the table, they are precious.

Dennis
Cool, celebrate the difference but why not focus on the positive differences than the negative ones? Is being the country with the largest number of gun deaths and/or mass shootings really something to celebrate?

I'm not claiming Australia is perfect, far from it. There are arseholes everywhere you go and we have our own population of them right here. We have our issues within our culture that are nothing to be proud of (the culture of alcoholism and our treatment of indigenous Australians to name a couple)

To your point about training, why not make that a federal law, you must have training and be proficient before you can own a gun? You must have a background check and there be a waiting period before you can get a gun?

That's not stopping you getting one just putting sensible constraints around it.

Also I assume you have constraints about what kind of weapons you can buy already, can you get a rocket launcher? SAMs? Heavy artillery? I assume not so there must be a line somewhere, this is just drawing it a bit lower down that's all to minimise the risk.

Treating the constitution like a holy document that can't be changed is a pretty simplisitic view and does not take into account the changes that occur in technology and human development. Also it's changed before how do you think you got that "amendment" in the first place? Everything can be improved upon
User avatar
By HGXC
#379733
Enos wrote:
Cool, celebrate the difference but why not focus on the positive differences than the negative ones? Is being the country with the largest number of gun deaths and/or mass shootings really something to celebrate?

I'm not claiming Australia is perfect, far from it. There are arseholes everywhere you go and we have our own population of them right here. We have our issues within our culture that are nothing to be proud of (the culture of alcoholism and our treatment of indigenous Australians to name a couple)

To your point about training, why not make that a federal law, you must have training and be proficient before you can own a gun? You must have a background check and there be a waiting period before you can get a gun?

That's not stopping you getting one just putting sensible constraints around it.

Also I assume you have constraints about what kind of weapons you can buy already, can you get a rocket launcher? SAMs? Heavy artillery? I assume not so there must be a line somewhere, this is just drawing it a bit lower down that's all to minimise the risk.

Treating the constitution like a holy document that can't be changed is a pretty simplisitic view and does not take into account the changes that occur in technology and human development. Also it's changed before how do you think you got that "amendment" in the first place? Everything can be improved upon
Enos.. the constitution can certainly be changed, it a living document and all the people who complain should know better. It takes a constitutional convention and a super majority vote. And yes it is a holy document. We have 50 states and that allows us to have 50 different versions of gun control. California has some of the stiffer gun laws but terrorists and criminals don't obey the law.

If these scumbags came to an gathering like this in my town they would have seen 10-15% of the locals packing. I think that's why they choose other areas and states. Its not just political..Vermont next door has fewer laws. Again I don't own a gun but I don't want to limit gun ownership to citizens...it seems laws don't stop the crazies.
User avatar
By BBJCaptain
#379736
Enos wrote: Is being the country with the largest number of gun deaths and/or mass shootings really something to celebrate?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE[/youtube]
User avatar
By Enos
#379739
Way to take one line and use it BBJ, seems to be a standard tactic of yours

To avoid you being pedantic, do you agree there's a problem in the US with mass shootings? If not then everything's fine and nothing needs to change.

If you do agree it's a problem, what's your solution or approach?

I've yet to see anyone counter the argument of limiting the types of weapons and requiring background checks or at least a waiting period. It won't stop them completely but it may reduce the occurrences without impinging your right to own a firearm

If your only counter argument is thin edge of the wedge then go away and think harder :p
User avatar
By JR
#379746
Enos wrote:Way to take one line and use it BBJ, seems to be a standard tactic of yours

To avoid you being pedantic, do you agree there's a problem in the US with mass shootings? If not then everything's fine and nothing needs to change.

If you do agree it's a problem, what's your solution or approach?

I've yet to see anyone counter the argument of limiting the types of weapons and requiring background checks or at least a waiting period. It won't stop them completely but it may reduce the occurrences without impinging your right to own a firearm

If your only counter argument is thin edge of the wedge then go away and think harder :p
Enos, you're wasting your time engaging with these ammosexuals who live in fear and have obvious insecurity issues, but the video provided by our BBJ is for the most part, total BS.

http://www.snopes.com/united-states-third-murders/

JR
User avatar
By Darbbb
#379747
"...You are more likely to die in a mass shooting than to win the Powerball drawing, but the truth is that you are not going to do either. That does not stop people from buying lottery tickets, and it does not stop people from fearing being killed in spectacular acts of terrorism.

It is true that guns kill tens of thousands of Americans every year—the majority of them from suicide. Of the fraction that are homicides, only a vanishingly small fraction of those are high profile mass shootings of the type that make people fear to go to office parties, or to movie theaters."


http://gawker.com/you-will-not-die-in-a ... 1746158444
User avatar
By Jason
#379748
Enos wrote:Way to take one line and use it BBJ, seems to be a standard tactic of yours

To avoid you being pedantic, do you agree there's a problem in the US with mass shootings? If not then everything's fine and nothing needs to change.

If you do agree it's a problem, what's your solution or approach?

I've yet to see anyone counter the argument of limiting the types of weapons and requiring background checks or at least a waiting period. It won't stop them completely but it may reduce the occurrences without impinging your right to own a firearm

If your only counter argument is thin edge of the wedge then go away and think harder :p
here is the problem with the gun issue

there are too many racist old white guys with guns- Noah did a piece just a few days ago
http://on.cc.com/1PGaIrx

thats a major problem- these guys in Irving texas are giving everyone a bad name (and they aren't the only ones)


the US also has a violence problem- even if we magically made all gun murders disappear overnight, wed STILL be more violent than the UK, Australia, and Canada (and we are far to resourceful to not find other ways of killing each other, as is proven by the fact that without guns we are still "better at it" that those other three countries)
Image

Background checks are fine

but we have to face the fact
-we live in a country that glorifies violence (video games, movies, ill thoughtout wars)
-we live in a country that coddles children to think they are oh so special and we can't hurt their self esteem, school sports have no winners and losers, and the real world just doesn't work this way
-and considering the fact that most of these people doing the mass shooting come from well to do white families- they eventually realize they will never be as successful as their parents- solution- kill em all




yes-IM white, im middle class, i have "assault weapons", I have no problem with background checks, and im not afraid of some people in texas going to church (thats what a mosque is) or looking to flee violence
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By HGXC
#379749
When you begin with the term racist "old white guys" aren't you sort of starting right off as a racist yourself with a touch of ageism LOL

Jason you need a little sensitivity training.....

Now another thing...

"-and considering the fact that most of these people doing the mass shooting come from well to do white families- they eventually realize they will never be as successful as their parents- solution- kill em all"

Now I could be wrong but, the last time I looked that cute little couple from San Bernardino they didn't remind me of June or Ward Cleaver!!!!
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By Jason
#379751
HGXC wrote:When you begin with the term racist "old white guys" aren't you sort of starting right off as a racist yourself with a touch of ageism LOL

Jason you need a little sensitivity training.....

Now another thing...

"-and considering the fact that most of these people doing the mass shooting come from well to do white families- they eventually realize they will never be as successful as their parents- solution- kill em all"

Now I could be wrong but, the last time I looked that cute little couple from San Bernardino they didn't remind me of June or Ward Cleaver!!!!
yes- these guys in san bernadino were muslim

but dont' pretend for a second that the majority of mass shooters aren't white, or that these idiots in texas aren't racist as f***
Roof/ Lanza/ Lougher/Dear/Kliebold

the list goes on- with some exceptions (cho for example)



also i had to look up "june or ward cleaver" was that a talkie? I don't know, im not old enough :shock:
User avatar
By HGXC
#379753
"also i had to look up "june or ward cleaver" was that a talkie? I don't know, im not old enough Shocked"

Wiseguy ...get you ageist ass up here next summer and we will take my clubs L-23 for a spin.
:mrgreen:
User avatar
By Jason
#379754
would love to, haven't flown a sailplane in ages
User avatar
By HGXC
#379755
Jason wrote:would love to, haven't flown a sailplane in ages
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By Takeo77
#379758
Enos wrote:
Aldpal wrote:
I'm not taking away your ability or choice. I am suggesting some level of common sense when it comes to gun laws.
"Common sense" is in the rear view mirror. The number of laws we have and the amount of acrobatics we have to perform to stay clear of them is insane. The fact is society is a very thin veneer over a very turbulent ocean that we call humans living together. Any disruption of that veneer can bring on small or large scale state failure (natural disasters is one that comes to mind) The 2nd Amendment
is intended exactly as written: A hedge against the government monopolizing violence.
User avatar
By Aldpal
#379760
Takeo77 wrote:
Enos wrote:
Aldpal wrote:
I'm not taking away your ability or choice. I am suggesting some level of common sense when it comes to gun laws.
"Common sense" is in the rear view mirror. The number of laws we have and the amount of acrobatics we have to perform to stay clear of them is insane. The fact is society is a very thin veneer over a very turbulent ocean that we call humans living together. Any disruption of that veneer can bring on small or large scale state failure (natural disasters is one that comes to mind) The 2nd Amendment
is intended exactly as written: A hedge against the government monopolizing violence.
That was not my post or quote, but I don't disagree with your response to it, especially considering the reality of what I saw first hand as a fireman during the Los Angeles riots post Rodney King verdict.
User avatar
By Takeo77
#379761
My apologies, It is obvious that I misquoted. My comments are directed at Enos of course.
User avatar
By Aldpal
#379763
Why is it so predictable that when you are sitting around a campfire having a relatively polite discussion, some one invariably walks up kicks a log, stirs up all the ashes and blows soot and smoke on everyone? Not naming names but who wrote this?

"Enos, you're wasting your time engaging with these ammosexuals who live in fear and have obvious insecurity issues, but the video provided by our BBJ is for the most part, total BS."

It's funny how a supposedly tolerant liberal joins a discussion by using a sexual slur, to refer to everyone with an opposing view as well as saying they have some personality (insecurity) "Issues" and warns that it is a waste of time to "Engage" with them. And one wonders were the stereo type comes from that Liberals are arrogant, condescending, intellectuals, that know better than the common folk that they avoid engaging with.

Hello J.R. How is the weather back in Maryland? My mother finally moved to Florida and put her house on the Eastern shore (Oxford) up for sale. It has been on the market for a year, and no nibbles. I think the weather was part of the decision to move but I suspect it was she may be one on those closeted ammosexuals, and being a conservative with "Issues". I was going to ask her, but I was told I should not engage with her type. If you are going to live in one of two most liberal states (out of 57) you should join me here in Kalifornia where at least the weather is good. It is in the 80's, warm and dry. People are water skiing behind my house.

Jorge, Half Swiss and Half Columbian? I love it, what an interesting combo. I believe if we probably would agree on a lot more things than we would differ on. You fly HG so there is a start. I did not even realize yesterday was Dec 7th, when I took issue with your Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing comments.

Jason, I am not sure if I accept the "convetional wisdom" or consensus on the racial or economic staus of most mass shooting perpetrators. I already provided this link that might make you reconsider accepting the narrative of the usual suspect:

http://www.anncoulter.com

I presume this thread has pretty much turned into a gun rights/gun control debate, so I will offer a few more thoughts.

Since the current POTUS took office 7 years ago over 100 million more guns have been sold in the US (population 318 million). Kind of ironic that a politician that wants to reduce guns the USA has presided over record guns sale. Like it or not guns are not going any where any time soon. Regardless if no criminal had a gun, I would still prefer to have one for self defense at home (and beyond) because If an intruder ONLY had a knife I don't really want to confront him or her with a knife too.

As I stated before, I also put a value in living in a country where the citizens have more guns than the government, and the government fears (or is accountable) it's citizens, not the other way around.

I was also called to duty for the 1992 LA riots that lasted several days. An estimated 63 people died during the riots (which would not have happened if RK had just pulled over). Amazingly a large number of LAPD units were ordered to stand down and stay in staging areas rather than respond to actual reported incidents that could have been stopped. The courts later in cases such as the Reginald Denny Beating established that the police did not have a duty to respond, and were not accoutable for not doing so. Vilolent, deadly spontaneous rioting is not unique to the US. I think I prefer having an ability to defend myself until (if or when?) the police decide to respond.

I don't think I have an irrational fear of statistically infrequent situations that a gun (which is really just a tool) might be useful, and I don't run around 24/7 worrying about it. I carry a reserve in my HG harness and wear a parachute (which are really just tools) while flying my sailplanes. I certainly enjoy flying and I don't think I really spend any time during flights worrying about having to use my parachute.

Enough ranting for now, pass the smores. (or for some of my more liberal friends maybe I should say pass that joint) :)
Last edited by Aldpal on Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Takeo77
#379764
Aldpal wrote: Amazingly a large number of LAPD units were ordered to stand down and stay in staging areas rather than respond to actual reported incidents that could have been stopped.
Yep, and left a lot of Asian-American businesses (Specifically, majority Korean-owned) to the mob, with their owners flapping in the wind.

I will never, ever, ever understand why ethnic minorities in America can support civil disarmament. It's tantamount to suicide.