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By aeroexperiments
#368997
I don't understand this at all. To me the grapevine grip is the way to go for good control of angle-of-attack during a long ground run. See previous post. Steve
T9HUBB wrote:In Colorado where I fly, the grapevine grip can get you into a lot of trouble. We take off from shallow slopes at six to thirteen thousand feet MSL. This means that many launches use from six to ten or even more running steps. From my observation of the videos of the grapevine grip launches at the radial ramp in Tennessee, the launch by NMERider on this thread, and many launches from the international competitions the grapevine grip auto-rotates the upper body from upright to horizontal in about 4 steps which forces the pilot to the base tube and ends his run prematurely.

Not to nitpick the NMERider launch, but notice that he barely clears the end of the ramp. His feet are too far behind him at that point to continue to run. The pilot takes six steps where eight would have been better. When pilots say that the grapevine grip makes it easier to transition to the basetube I contend that it forces you to the basetube. This is all fine and dandy if the launch quickly presents open airspace, but if you need to run farther you are out of luck.
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By aeroexperiments
#369001
T9HUBB said the grapevine "forces you to the base tube". What?

The only time I can imagine this happening is if it's really windy. If the hang strap is heavily loaded-- essentially the same as in full-fledged flight-- the pistol grip might give you more power to keep the nose down. I'm not sure. Definitely hands on the front wires would give you even more power to keep the nose down. And hands on the base bar would be similar to hands on the front wires, as far as your ability to keep the nose down.

But running along with the wing lightly loaded? So there is a long interval where the glider is light on your shoulders but the hang strap is not heavily loaded? Surely the grapevine grip, with its two points of contact, is the way to go for maximum pitch control.

Steve
By Comet
#369023
I was taught the bottle grip. When I saw all the comp pilots using the grapevine, I switched to that and was amazed with the power and control it afforded.
Having your hands around the front of the tubes enables you to force the nose down when you are launching into a strong updraft, such as the edge of a cliff.

Now, to avoid Pagen terminology, I refer to the respective grips as "the training hill grip" and "the badass comp pilot grip."
By RBT
#391430
Anyone got any opinions on lifting the glider up before launch to tighten the hang strap? Earlier in this thread Red says he does this at every launch with his inside the uprights grip:
- shoulders in front of the control bar, elbows behind,
http://tinyurl.com/TDlaunch
- bend elbows to lift glider tight at the hang-strap,
- hang straps tight, before the first step,
- easy to hold the nose down during launch; elbows push forward, hands push rearward,
- tow the glider forward by the hang-strap, using the harness, as you run,
- hands doing control moves, not lifting, once the glider can fly itself.
- leaning well forward into the run,

Read more: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?
t=18442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60#ixzz4KpC5zabj

Haven't tried it yet but doubt this would work with my grapevine grip/apron harness as it would mean the uprights wouldn't be able to be nestled snugly against the deltoid muscles (the A Frame would be too wide in this situation).

Irrespective of the above, is it a good idea to tighten the hangstrap before the launch run? Wouldn't this mean you would not be able to get up enough speed before the glider started to lift you off the ground on certain launches? TIA for any replies.
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By Bouyo
#391433
RBT wrote:Anyone got any opinions on lifting the glider up before launch to tighten the hang strap? Earlier in this thread Red says he does this at every launch with his inside the uprights grip:
- shoulders in front of the control bar, elbows behind,
http://tinyurl.com/TDlaunch
- bend elbows to lift glider tight at the hang-strap,
- hang straps tight, before the first step,
- easy to hold the nose down during launch; elbows push forward, hands push rearward,
- tow the glider forward by the hang-strap, using the harness, as you run,
- hands doing control moves, not lifting, once the glider can fly itself.
- leaning well forward into the run,

Read more: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?
t=18442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60#ixzz4KpC5zabj

Haven't tried it yet but doubt this would work with my grapevine grip/apron harness as it would mean the uprights wouldn't be able to be nestled snugly against the deltoid muscles (the A Frame would be too wide in this situation).

Irrespective of the above, is it a good idea to tighten the hangstrap before the launch run? Wouldn't this mean you would not be able to get up enough speed before the glider started to lift you off the ground on certain launches? TIA for any replies.
This (launching with light straps) reminds me of a topic I started last year here: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34010
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By TjW
#391436
RBT wrote:Anyone got any opinions on lifting the glider up before launch to tighten the hang strap? Earlier in this thread Red says he does this at every launch with his inside the uprights grip:
- shoulders in front of the control bar, elbows behind,
http://tinyurl.com/TDlaunch
- bend elbows to lift glider tight at the hang-strap,
- hang straps tight, before the first step,
- easy to hold the nose down during launch; elbows push forward, hands push rearward,
- tow the glider forward by the hang-strap, using the harness, as you run,
- hands doing control moves, not lifting, once the glider can fly itself.
- leaning well forward into the run,

Read more: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?
t=18442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60#ixzz4KpC5zabj

Haven't tried it yet but doubt this would work with my grapevine grip/apron harness as it would mean the uprights wouldn't be able to be nestled snugly against the deltoid muscles (the A Frame would be too wide in this situation).

Irrespective of the above, is it a good idea to tighten the hangstrap before the launch run? Wouldn't this mean you would not be able to get up enough speed before the glider started to lift you off the ground on certain launches? TIA for any replies.
Even if you can't comfortably run that way, I think it's always a good idea to lift the glider until the straps are tight before you launch. That last little tug makes me certain I'm hooked in. If you have to set it back on your shoulders to run, well, then you do.
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By Cloudhopper
#391438
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:04 pm Post subject: Tight Hang Strap Reply with quote #2
I think the proper launch technique depends on several factors, including the slope steepness and wind strength. Slope can be steep or shallow, wind can be light or strong.

My technique is as follows

In case of light and steep, I keep straps tight. I will get speed quickly, and want control authority immediately, without waiting for the wing to "float up"

In light and shallow, I want the wing to float up perfectly level and with no pitch change as I start my run. Having the down tubes on my biceps help accelerate the wing without popping the nose

On a strong steep (windy cliff), I go loose. I want to be certain the wing doesn't get away and lift me before I'm ready and it's balanced. I keep the base tube near the ground and use my arms to control roll and pitch. When It is balanced, I move forward and the wing lifts to tighten the strap in one smooth motion.

Finally, in strong winds on a shallow slope, I let the wing fly up until straps are tight, then pull in as I accelerate, letting out again once well above stall speed. If it's really strong, I'll use the thumbs down grasp on the DT's, with my shoulders well forward.

These techniques work well for high performance topless gliders. Might need to be modified for different wing or harness.

Tom
By RBT
#391444
Cheers for all the replies and the link to the other thread. Seems like with experience it is a technique you could use for certain launch types. When learning though, you are more looking at ways to simplify and standardize things for muscle memory. As such, like Bouyo, I thought gluesniffer's explaination (from the linked thread) more suited to my situation:
If it is smooth air and the glider wants to fly when standing at launch, I let it fly. If it wants to sit on my shoulders I let it sit. Down side of holding a glider up is not maintaining a loose grip. Hard to feel what the air is telling you when you're squeezing the down tubes. Also it is hard to let the glider find its trim when you're gripping as well. A light touch is the cornerstone of hang gliding. If you have to lift, make sure you loosen up your grip as soon as possible.

Read more: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.ph ... z4KrNyxiXt
By lynntalon
#391445
My opinion is that grape vine makes the nose drop on lunches why we do it is to hold the glider up I would say set the a frame in your shoulders this keeps it up and keep your arms level and it stops I tell my students this hope it helps
.
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By Paul H
#391484
I use the Grapevine with the hang strap tight, all launches and conditions.
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By Eteamjack
#391495
I was taught to use a reverse grapevine grip which worked successfully for many years. Both hands were in the down extended position on the front of the downtubes. When the high performance wings came along and after a couple of close encounters with the ground i changed to the standard grapevine.
By blindrodie
#391503
The link to a video below, besides being really good in many aspects of production quality, scenery and flying skill, is a GREAT example of one pilots launch grip and transition to flight. Give it a look-see!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49660

8)

For my buddy Red...

http://youtu.be/jAq_qI-6rwE